The problem with Scion's image is that it is already somewhat a 'performance' image. Based on their concepts and the money they throw at real race teams to stick 'Scion' appearances on cars completely unrelated to the cars people buy. (Titan 2JZ powered 'Scion'???)

This has created a backlash in the real performance community. Plus all their retarded Scion Nation ads, and spamming the import shows with terrible Fast and Furious versions of 'custom' cars.

This will not go away with the FT86 as a halo car. The dealers are still geared up to sell stereos and cosmetic garbage to people who want to 'customize' their cars.

What we will get will be an odd mix of a very few legitimately fast cars given to certain companies to promote the brand, and a ridiculous amount of riced-out show and street cars.

April's Import Tuner magazine has a feature on a couple of Scion tC's (as well as my buddy's Supra). They won first and second place in the Scion Tuner Challenge. First, neither of these guys bought the cars. They were given to them by Scion. Secondly Scion gave them $15K each to mod them. Plus it's only for Scions (obviously).

The second place car, looks all racey and track built. The reference Rado in the text. But, never been on the track and never will be. As for its second place finish: No audio. No win. Sheesh...

The first place 'tuner' (with massive subs and airbag suspension!) doesn't even know how to put directional tires on properly on his staggered (not FWD staggered) rims... (Photo page 50)

That's what Scion wants. A race car that will never race, and a ridiculous riced-out and bagged car with directional tires on backwards.

But for what? Do these guys get to keep them? Nope. They go back to Scion to be used in the ads of show cars they use to promote customization, but always with the:

"Vehicles shown are special project cars, modified with non-Genuine Scion parts and accessories. Modification with these non-Genuine Scion parts or accessories will void the Scion warranty, may negatively impact vehicle performance and safety, and may not be street legal."

disclaimer.

They will use a custom car to sell their cars, then threaten to void warranties if you don't use their Genuine Scion parts. Horseshit. But this has led to the sense that most Scion customized cars are flamboyant riced-out, stereo filled crap, as a lot of the drivers do exactly what the brand wants them to. Buy their crap over-priced dealer options.

(BTW both those cars have turbo kits, and even if there was a third car with the same power, they wouldn't top my buddy's Supra's power.)

Think of the ricer image. Adding a legitimate product to a brand that already has a ricer reputation, isn't going to cure the reputation, as the ricers are still there. I liken this to Toyota putting a gun to my head to switch brands and hang out with ricers. To that I say 'Fuck you, Toyota. That Subaru looks like a nice option.' Now with the many people that may feel the same way as me, going to Subaru for this car, there is immediate lost sales potential right there. This includes mature former Supra, MR2 or Celica owners that maybe the kids have grown up and its time to buy a fun car, but stepping 'down' to a Scion doesn't cross their mind (maybe they go IS, Miata or 1 series, who knows?)

Bottom line, look at the sales figures I posted. The disgruntled former fans won't help Scion increase their sales by the nearly 120,000! annual units that it has lost since 2006. It will be an expensive showroom car, that gets passed over, and dealers dislike because it's harder to sell to the Scion-target market. The sales don't go up. It gets labeled a failure and it and the whole dying brand gets canned.

Just like Saturn.

(Worst case scenario.)

cruzes are complete garbage, even the pathetic turbo ones.







Well said Dimman.

Dimman, I get what you're saying. I hate the ricer plague just as much.
I'm with you on all of your latest points.
I don't have much to counter with besides wishful thinking and theory. But I do have some faith that Toyota/Scion can regain sales slowly but surely if they play the cards right.

Like most good cars, I think ricers are going to grab at it with their disease-ridden claws...regardless of the badge.
But then, it should be a great car, regardless of the badge too.

Setting the record straight: The logic side of my brain can justify why it should be a Scion (marketing possibility and profit), but the other thing...MY SOUL, says it should be a Toyota (pedigree, tradition, car lore)

My logical side screams "what the fuck is with Scion? What a waste of breath saying it."

There is the rumour of the change to a cost-conscious switch to Subaru's base 2.5L instead of a Yamaha modified 2.0L. This would be a Scion-specified change. There would likely be a de-contenting of stuff like an LSD or more aggressive stock suspension tuning, so the dealers can make more money on install options (while reducing the initial purchase cost, they would increase the as-delivered cost due to the 'stealerships' ridiculous install costs). These are steps backward.

Logic and soul say Toyota to me. While a Scion-branded car can be seen as a negative to enthusiasts, I don't see the reversed effect with a Toyota branding (this equals a broader potential customer range and more sales). Plus it saves on marketing, as there can be shared efforts internationally. (FIA GT racing, Toyota?) I don't see how Scion can make more profit for Toyota, with its decreasing sales, but the dealers probably make more per car on all the option installs. This is a lose-lose situation for Toyota and the consumer while the dealers laugh all the way to the bank.

Toyota needs to stop wasting money on Scion. Kill it. Fire the management and marketing fools. Then put that money directly into engineering's budget. Build a real performance 'skunk works' engineering team, and stop off-loading their 'R&D' to shitty Scion 'tuners' (and NASCAR...).

Seriously look at those declining numbers!!! Why weren't these Scion management retards purged years ago??? Because they've put some bullshit spin on it that "Scion's not about making money. It's about getting kids into Scions so they can move up to Toyotas."??? If they didn't build boring-ass Toyota's there would be no need to make a brand that is just dressed-up 'cool' boring-ass Toyotas, which clearly isn't even working anyways.

This car should seriously be called a Toyota Corolla GT-S (I would personally call it a Corolla N86 for 'new' or 'next'). It accomplishes two things: Rekindling the performance heritage of the AE86, as well as associating 'Corolla' and 'awesome' together in a way that hasn't been done in decades.

Instant marketing purpose achieved. Get kids into Toyotas. Get enthusiasts into Toyotas. Re-invigorate Toyota's image. One simple name.

But it would need a follow-up series of cars from Toyota. Where do you go from FT86? Camry? Avalon? Yawn... Closest cars are the Lexus IS series. They need an intermediate RWD performance car stepping stone. A new 2GR V6 RWD Celica perhaps? (This applies even if they go Scion...)

No. Regardless of what inspired it, this car is not a corolla, and a corolla is not what it was 25 years ago. Levin or Trueno would be completely cool to me, but I can completely see Johnny and Jane consumer looking at it and wondering "wtfbbq??!?! Corolla??!!?"

a) Why should marketing possibility be put at the forefront of this car? Furthermore, one should ask themselves, is scion worth risking a sales failure for the FT-86 and by extension, risking the possibilty of a second gen 86 and the resurgence of Toyota sports cars? Take into consideration this is the point of view of a person who thinks Scion has potential and can still work out to be a good thing (just that the FT-86 shouldn't be a scion).

b) Wouldn't Toyota stand to profit even more marketing this car as a ...well Toyota, rather than a scion?

Scions are not sold in every Toyota dealership, but Toyotas are sold in every Scion dealership. People will still come and see, and if mom and dad don't want a rwd for Jonny Drifter jr, they can be easily pointed toward the tC.

Just looking for validity (no right or wrong) Toyota has plenty of reason to put the Scion badge on it vs. a Toyota one.

1) The buyers for Scion are significantly younger than those for Toyota (30's vs. 50's) It wouldn't be wrong to think that a small RWD sports-car would be embraced by the younger crowd. These are the research figures, Toyota isn't going to ignore them.

2) Toyota has already taken risk with the Project Genesis cars, one can argue that the marketing for those weren't any good and that the cars were sub-rate as well. BUT I'm sure Toyota doesn't think the same, they probably believe they did a great job with the Celica & MR2. It's rare for a car company to believe their product is/was inadequate.

This is what worries me. They would indeed save money if they just stuck the 86 into Scion's current ad/marketing scheme. I hate this idea.

I'm hoping that they will create a "new scion", but that would cost money, time, and a whole lot of effort.

BUT fitting the 86 into what Toyota is currently perceived as (boring cars for older people, certainly not the enthusiast brand it used to be) would cost just as much money. Fitting a square peg into a round socket deal here.

IMO a "New Scion" is the smartest option and hopefully what the execs are actually doing.

- "Market research" shows that those "young buyers" aren't the ones spending the money. Scion has it's fair share of grandpas and grandmas driving them too. The young-uns drive the tC and Gen 1 xB.

- Toyota has to acknowledge that they were sub-par efforts. If they didn't, I'd like to think there are many more things that they should worry about. Toyota isn't say, GM.

- Toyota. Supra. MR2. Corolla GT-S, FX, XRS. Celica All Trac, GT-S. 2000GT.

Scion...... oh wait.

Square peg in a round hole.

- Are you crazy? Creating a "new scion"? :slap: GTFO.

I'm sure they do, but the average driver age is still in lower than Toyota's.

I have no idea if they ever acknowledged they did a bad job. In GM's case, only years after did Bob Lutz admit that the Pontiac Aztec was a bad idea.

Not sure why you're naming cars. I know Toyota has a rich history of sports car. I said it's not the brand's image right now in 2011.
"New Scion" means a new mentality for Scion. How is this crazy? Cadillac has done it, all of GM is in the midst of a renovation, so is Volvo, Hyundai/Kia, Suzuki even.

This has resulted in nothing but improved products. Does it mean they're all awesome now? No, but drastically better than the old, that's for sure.

I know Toyota wants to reinvigorate their brand, but I'm betting they know that Scion needs to so much more.
With the two options of:
a) Kill Scion.
b) Badge 86 as a Scion

Plan B doesn't scare the investors, it follows with what their research figures say with the age group, it fits in better than with 2011 Toyota. Any chance to fix the brand, Toyota is going to take it.

New-Matador:

The term 'average' isn't always what people think it is. Scion could be selling 99% of its cars split evenly between only 50 year olds and 20 year-olds, but that makes the average buyers age 35, which isn't an accurate picture of who's buying the cars.

It's depressing to think that Toyota has sank countless dollars into a brand that you feel needs a light freshening after only 10 years. And considering there are only 2 generations of product in that span... People need to be fired (so they don't 're-structure' back into Toyota and do more damage), and then Scion needs to be killed.

Suzuki, I haven't seen much of a change in, Volvo got marginally less ugly, and Hyundai's quality has been improving which is a legitimate improvement, not a marketing image fix.

Cadillac is your best example out of that bunch, but they moved more upscale, not down, as well as going after BMW dynamically. They moved down in the age of buyers, but not to the point where it was targeting kids. GM may be able to do make some good changes after the bankruptcy scared some sense into them. I worry that Toyota in its new number one position will follow in GM's old retarded footsteps.

Scion spent 10 years building a terrible image of douchey kids who want DJ booths in their cars. It will take time and a LOT of money to erase that image and creating a new one.

Edit for your edit: Go back to those sales numbers I posted. They are selling about 120,000 cars less per year than 4-5 years ago! Less than 50%!


Old Matador:

I've been thinking that the Corolla GT-S nameplate would work very, very well for this car. It has instant name recognition by anyone who has thought about buying a car. In AE86 form it was respected as a sports cars, even by those who haven't adopted the fanboi's 8-6 designation.

Some OG Supra guys I talk to:
Me: "Nice 86 over there."
OG Supra guy: "What?"
Me: "Drift Corolla."
OG Supra guy: "Oh yeah, nice."

There are older folks that may have fond memories of their first GT-S but never went hard-core enthusiast about them. Younger kids could get mommy and daddy to the dealer to look at the new Corolla a lot easier than the new Levin or Trueno (Tru-eh-no?). It has the platform to drift or race if that is what's wanted. They could even race in FIA GT3 class (I think? GT4? They keep changing...) internationally to raise excitement for Corolllas and Toyotas.

I think it has the widest reach of any name, as well as good heritage.

Either way, though, Toyota needs a move-up car for after this and before the IS, whether it's a Scion or Toyota.

I agree, it's one of the pitfalls of relying on numerical data. Sadly, it's one of the only ways companies measure their buyers. All about "averages" and the bottom-line...

Suzuki is attempting to move upscale, only real sign of it right now is the Kizashi--not that bad of a car, it's a great effort. More will come.

Volvo, known for their safety features, is in a tight spot because laws and regulation make safety features mandatory. I would bet most BMW's ties Volvo in crash-test etc etc. Volvo, thinking progressively, is trying to get younger and enthusiastic buyers. New S60, charming car.

I actually think Hyundai is doing great. They're more upscale than ever before. They even managed to meet projected sales with the Genesis sedan, a $45k Hyundai!?!? Wouldn't have believed it 5-6 years ago. Gen Coupe is nice, Sonata looks great, Elantra is light-years ahead of it's prior self.

Yes, Cadillac is a real success. It's a miracle what GM was able to do with it. Pontiac was about to pick up speed too, it's just a shame GM didn't have the money.

It's a inexcusable figure, almost a joke. Whether or not Scion's worth saving (or even capable of saving) ehh, it's hard for me to take the "kill it" stand but I do fully understand both sides.

A mild re-fresh, I agree, certainly won't do. Scion needs a complete work-over. How, or even if, they're doing it...I haven't a clue.

Yes, firing all the old execs is a step in the right direction.

As I said before, I have nothing else to really say besides theoretical possibility for the brand.

Interesting idea. I think it's always cool when a brand has a designated sport model of a "normal" car. Golf/Rabbit GTI, Civic Si, Mazdaspeed3, BMW M division, Mercedes AMG line etc etc etc.

Obviously the 86 won't be a spiced up Corolla sedan but the idea is still there.

haha, imagine getting attacked by some very violent environmentalist.
"Your sports car is killing our planet! DESTROY!"
"No wait wait wait! It's economical, it's a Corolla! Look at the badge."
"Oh...it is a Corolla....never mind."

Whether they publicly acknowledge it or not, they should by all means realize they did a bad job, otherwise they have their head in the sand and are headed for disaster.

Toyota's image in 2011 is one without the sports cars I named, whereas their history is full of them, hence making the FT-86 a Toyota is NOT a square peg in a round hole. To think that is idiotic. In fact, most of the enthusiast market would agree that Toyota NEEDS to get back to that point in their history. As long as they keep making the Prius and versions of it, NOTHING can tarnish their brand as a green car maker. Do you not realize they have 6 SUVs and two trucks in their lineup (another absurdity for another argument another day, but I digress...)?

I know exactly what you mean when you say "new scion", however
a) Scion was never meant to be an enthusiast brand and b) why should Toyota waste more money on it? As I said before, what's it worth? Please read my last post. I don't think it should be killed...yet anyway, but I can think of 10 better ways to improve it than to shoehorn the FT-86 into it's lineup. c) Most sports car buyers have some measure disposable income. That means they will either be in a slightly higher age target demographic, or in a higher income demographic. How does Scion fit in again?

If Toyota is going to insist that the FT-86 be a Scion then it will need way more than 180hp as Scion already has a 180hp coupe in it's line-up

The average auto buyer doesn't understand RWD>FWD and will walk into the scion dealer and see two coupes: a 180hp $20,000 tC and a $25,000 FT-86.

The FT-86 will need at least 220hp to justify the price gap over the tC to your average joe that doesn't know or care that one is RWD and the other FWD. Without a turbo I highly doubt the new FB series of engine can get much over 200hp NA so it's going to be a tough sale as a Scion.

I couldn't agree more. To help your argument the TC starts at $19K. Not many people are gonna walk into the scion dealer and say hey only $6,000 more for 20hp.