F20C performance out of the FA20
 

I don't have any immediate plans, but I'd like to one day give the FA20 in my FR-S the high revving character of an F20C engine (with the HP bump as well). Obviously, I'd like then to keep the car NA. I just think it suits the character of the car better. FI is great for a certain person, but I like how NA feels, sounds, etc.

Does anyone have any idea how much this would cost? What parts would be required?

Thanks in advance!

This is perfection...
 

And not that crazy expensive either..

Not going to happen then

Engine swap bro. The fa20 will never be as alive and engaging as the f20c... Bolt-ons don't react real well to this car either, people seem legitimately happy to hit 200whp which just baffles me.

You are looking in the realm of $10-12k
My build
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63901

It can be done, do not listed to the naysayers

he said he wanted to get it done and for it not to be expensive. I think many of us would think 10-12k is indeed expensive.

Thats my total build with trans gearing carbon fiber driveshaft aluminum flywheel... ect to get the responsiveness out of the car

You see the same pricing with full turbo build, Built block good turbo kit fuel upgrade clutch...
The difference is that with a turbo build you will net more power BUT brake more shit. A NA build when done right can last 100k miles+.

Our Turbo enthusiasts are replacing engines at $2500 each used, Transmissions at $1000 each. NA will not reach the physical mechanical failure limit like turbo does, but I bet you will see a 12 second, high 11 All motor FA20 which is pretty freaking fast!

I think netting a 20% increase with bolt ons and a tune is pretty respectable, especially when it can be done for around $2000. That's $50 per 1HP.

Putting it into perspective if you wanted a good 450HP FA20 Turbo you will spend at least $10k @ $34 per 1HP. Downfall is at 450HP the transmission will eventually fail, Axles are twigs.. May want to upgrade those too for $1000, definitely need a wider tire then an NA car. Everything starts to compound the pricing upwards

let me know when this happens...People are replacing motors on FI you're right on that, mainly due to using a stock block though. Those who are built I really haven't seen having issues, and even less issues when running realistic boost levels.

I like how it seems there are more and more N/A discussions in the past week. Hopefully @celek will come up with some good results for the FA20

Exactly realistic levels, So they dump $7000~ into the car for 280WHP

Unfortunately since I am not made of money this build will be a LONG process. Its already been over a year...

Oh I hear you....without the development costs of a company that is looking to sell their kit, it is a lot of time/money

I may end up doing that in the end... at least offering it up, but that's probably a good year down the road. Plus I would want to document and test/prove the crap out of it before saying it would be ready.

The issue here is I am funding other companies to make new products they can release, except I am not telling them the rest of the info involved,

Just an idea... What if you re-plumbed the port injectors to be methanol only, added a 2nd fuel tank and pump in the trunk for the methanol, and boosted the timing to the sky while keeping it from pinging with the methanol? Then you could keep the car NA. You could set it so it only had an effect from 80% requested torque on up to 140%. That way you could have an economical, sane, daily driver, yet just drop 2 gears and scream up to 7000 RPMs in a heartbeat. It would have the power of E85, but the ease of use, and economy of a regular gas burner.

That's cheaper than a F20C longblock...

More work than just plumbing meth injection into the manifold

What exactly is your goal, to match a stock S2000 in power?

A header/exhaust and tune will put an FA20 around 190-200 whp. Bone stock f20c's make about 195-205 whp, so it'll be very close. They do have a thicker midrange though, so should still have an acceleration advantage at lower speeds.

At higher speeds, the S2000's aero disadvantage comes into play. I was able to pull on a stock AP1 running top-down at my last track day on the straight (70-105 mph). I think I surprised the owner. I came back to my car in the pits and found him peering into my engine bay :)

I also ran about even on the straight with a modified S2000 running top-down at a different track (80-120 mph). I'm not sure what mods he had, but at least a loud exhaust ;)

Wouldnt that mess with the handling?
 

I did some searching but didn't find much info on how that would affect the feel of the car given the higher cog. Obviously the s2k transmission would be a dream

My goal is to capture the revvy, mechanical feel of the fa20. That engine feels like something could throw in a superbike lol. I love that. The chassis and steering of the FRS is amazing. I think the steering alone blows away anything under 50k. But I really think our engine lacks personality. HP numbers aren't that important to me. Character is.

This is sick! I dont think 10-12k is unreasonable. I'm not planning on doing this in the next year but it's a topic I want to keep abreast of for when I do take the plunge. I basically dream of an engine that behaves like a Yamaha r1m lol.

You're never EVER going to get the VTEC kick out of this engine. The F20C was also a freak, having the highest pistons speeds of it's time for a production car (it's still second to this day).


Two very different engines, but mods can level the playing field a bit...

The f20c has variable lift allowing for a very aggressive camshalf and high rpm flow. Our engines do not have variable lift. Also emission strandards are stricter now. Thats all there is to it.

That's not really all there is to it. The FA20 is not in the same class as the F20. It's not a bad engine, but it will never be epic like the Honda engine. It is adequate and that is all it will ever be.


Depends on your needs. If you want to try fighting out of your weight class and go drag racing then, yeah, 200 isn't enough. If you want to just have fun, it's enough. The car does'nt feel ashamed of that or hide it so if you bought one thinking it was anything else, that's your fault like buying a 1/4" ratchet to torque lug nuts and bitching when it breaks. :iono:

I am all for na and I watch your build with interest. Fi doesn't interest me but I have issue with your above statements.

You have made broad generalisations that may not apply to individual motors.
Sure, a na motor might last to 100k miles but not if it being thrashed exclusively on track at 6-9k rpm. Conversely, a well built turbo engine may last as long if it is being used as a shopping trolley.
Sorry, I am being a pedant but to say one is more reliable than the other doesn't take into account the myriads of ways an engine can be built, used or maintained.

[/rant]

[QUOTE=themadscientist;2277489]That's not really all there is to it. The FA20 is not in the same class as the F20. It's not a bad engine, but it will never be epic like the Honda engine. It is adequate and that is all it will ever.


Pretty sure we are saying the same thing. The fa20 isnt in the same class because it doesn't have variable lift. The F20c does of course. This is the primary difference imo.

I don't know if pushing the rev limit that much higher is a good idea on this motor, the rods are very short and so the cylinder walls see a lot of stress.

Know what's scary?

The new Mustang GT350 piston speeds just bumped the S2k down a notch...

My s2k would like to have a word with you :D

Ok assuming both are driven balls out, I'm putting my money on N/A all day being more reliable. There's so much more to take into account going FI.

Like air/fuel mixture, timing, cylinder pressure, oil delivery and control, cooling ,,stuff like that. Yeah, only FI engines have to worry about that.

If you want power level X, both motors are going to see stresses. While an FI engine has higher cylinder pressures, the NA engine is going to have to elevate its cylinder pressures as well AND wind up higher to achieve the same power as an FI does at lower RPMs

Nothing is free.

Bingo. Honda wouldn't be able to make an F20C these days. Why do you think Ferrari is moving to FI? I think it's pretty impressive that Subaru/Toyota created a naturally aspirated motor that makes 100hp/l in this day and age. Drink it up kids, we're near the end of the line with these types of motors...:cry:

This car was also not a $40k car when new too. For a sports car built to sell for $25k, the 86 definitely holds its own.

I hope one day some priviteer builds a 12000rpm lightweight internal na fa20 monster. But still, the biggest drawback to this motor is the lack of variable lift.

No it isn't. Everyone else already did it.

Toyota did this decades ago.

Hmmm... wasn't aware of that. Now if only they could fix the derpy look of the headlights on the new Mustang (and maybe cut some weight and bump the quality up a bit)


If they were both the same WHP, hell no. Know what's the coolest thing about boost? The fact you can change it on the fly. I've known 1000+HP Supras that started and drove just like it was stock (well, with loudish exhaust as it's hard to shut up 4" exhaust). Drive it all day out of boost and it's essentially boring.


Now try that with an NA engine. You need large displacement, high compression (requiring race gas 100% of the time), and a cam profile that won't like to idle and is gutless until you get into the high RPM's it needs to hit to get those numbers. Speaking of the high RPM's, you'll need to be spinning that high and piston speeds are going to be an issue (as well as valve float, balancing, flywheel, etc)



Yarp, it's why I always find the comparison a bit funny. Yes, I could also go buy a used vette for the price of the twins or a used S2000 and stomp either one... Compare apples to apples and original MSRP's and the twins are a serious bargain.

It's not really "variable lift" in the same sense that modern engines have "variable cam timing."


It's just two separate cam profiles, so it's either the low or the high-rpm cam lobe. Not so much "variable" as "either/or."

It is considering emissions and efficiency regs. Yes it's true that Toyota, Nissan, and Honda all made 100hp/l NA motors a while back, but it's very difficult for manufacturers to accomplish this today where they must meet stringent emissions and efficiency across their entire product line. Turbocharging is the easiest way for manufacturers to reach certain performance goals while meeting regs.

I think there's a few 100hp/l NA engines that would meet CAFE regs, but not CARB - California screws it all up for us!

Pretty sure there's a version of the K24 in production that's running right around 240hp. Just not available in USDM. Go figure.

So I'm hearing the F20C is just one of a kind (which I kind of already thought). Is there any decent info/thread out there on swapping the F20C in an FRS/BRZ? I'd like to preserve the handling/balance of the car if possible.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showt...=39707&page=13

@86Tony seems to think the K20 is superior... :bellyroll: