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Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community - FT86CLUB (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/index.php)
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-   -   Motor Trend: 2016 Miata vs 2015 BRZ (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89327)

Entroper 06-01-2015 04:52 AM
Motor Trend: 2016 Miata vs 2015 BRZ
 
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...rz_comparison/

Don't shoot the messenger. :popcorn:

Truthfully, I think most of the difference in measured performance is down to the tires. But ND is faster than I expected it to be, given the 155 hp figure.

Either way, I think it'll look great in the garage next to my wife's BRZ. :D

karbon 06-01-2015 05:05 AM
Already placed a preorder for the Club Miata! It's been a good 3 years with the BRZ but it's time to move on. :D

serialk11r 06-01-2015 06:02 AM
With shortened intake manifold runners to get better top end power that thing would probably smoke a stock BRZ period, it already pretty much does with its stock 155hp. Probably not that much horsepower left on the table though, since the exhaust headers are done quite well and the heads are restrictive.

Looks like Toyota's D4-S is quite formidable :)

Deslock 06-01-2015 07:22 AM
What I posted at miata.net (comparing the new Miata to the previous one):

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deslock
Faster (despite making less power), better handling (while still offering a comfortable ride), and more efficient. All while still being cheap and RWD. Mazda broke the old rule:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deslock
RWD, powerful, cheap, lightweight. Choose three.
This is HUGE. Basically, Mazda just bitch slapped every other automaker.
The FT86 is the best reasonably priced 4 seater you can get. The Miata is the best reasonably priced car you can get.

I adore my BRZ, but once I no longer need rear seats, I'll be back in a Miata.

DarkSunrise 06-01-2015 07:25 AM
Good article! The Miata is shaping up to be a strong competitor to the Twins. Its weight is impressive, and its acceleration advantage until ~94 mph makes sense given its lighter weight (i.e. torque to weight advantage) and aero/horsepower disadvantage at higher speeds. It's also generating higher grip levels, although I suspect that's due to wearing MP summer tires.

Two let-downs with the Miata:

1) Body roll, even with factory suspension package - not sure why Mazda always includes body roll in every generation Miata. If it's rolling that much on MP summer tires, it may need suspension upgrades to run sticky EP summer tires at the track.

2) Less handling flexibility - Lago's comment that the body roll and lack of power means you have less mid-corner adjustability than in the BRZ. This is one of the things I love about tracking my FR-S.

Still seems like amazing fun. For me, the Miata's lack of a coupe option eliminates it though as I don't want add a roll bar just to bring it to the track. I do hope the new Miata lights a fire under Toyota/Subaru's rears to keep improving the Twins.

Lastly the comparison with the MK7 GTI was sad. As an owner of a MK6, I was hoping the new MK7 with PP would be a bit closer in terms of driving fun to cars like the Twins and Miata, but it sounds like VW hasn't closed the gap at all. MT would have been better off comparing a hot hatch like the FoST.

Deslock 06-01-2015 07:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSunrise (Post 2269657)
Good article! The Miata is shaping up to be a strong competitor to the Twins. Its weight is impressive, and its acceleration advantage until ~94 mph makes sense given its lighter weight (i.e. torque to weight advantage) and aero/horsepower disadvantage at higher speeds. It's also generating higher grip levels, although I suspect that's due to wearing MP summer tires.

Two let-downs with the Miata:

1) Body roll, even with factory suspension package - not sure why Mazda always includes body roll in every generation Miata. If it's rolling that much on MP summer tires, it may need suspension upgrades to run sticky EP summer tires at the track.

2) Less handling flexibility - Lago's comment that the body roll and lack of power means you have less mid-corner adjustability than in the BRZ. This is one of the things I love about tracking my FR-S.

Still seems like a lot of fun though. For me, the Miata's lack of a coupe option eliminates it unfortunately, as I don't want add a roll bar just to bring it to the track. I do hope the new Miata lights a fire under Toyota/Subaru's rears to keep improving the Twins though.

Lastly the comparison with the MK7 GTI was sad. As an owner of a MK6, I was hoping the new MK7 with PP would be a bit closer in terms of driving fun to cars like the Twins and Miata, but it doesn't sound like VW has closed the gap at all. MT probably would have been better off comparing a hot hatch like the FoST.
  1. Body roll: That's a Mazda thing... my NB and RX8 had a lot of it too. Made the ride comfortable, and the cars were still formidable handlers (and a blast in the twisties). I personally prefer the BRZ's flatter behavior, and anyone who doesn't mind a stiffer ride can easily mod the Miata and make it handle even better.
  2. Less handling flexibility: As far as body roll goes, see above. As far as lack of power goes, on paper the ND lacks top end (but it may be underrated like the NC2). At low-to-mid-range engine speeds, it'll be noticeably faster than the BRZ.
I laughed at the GTI comment too:
Quote:
Then everybody who drove all three cars got out of this one asking what it was doing here. Pobst: "This is probably a very nice street car, but after coming out of two of the best track cars ever made, it's a bloody frustrating experience. The stability control can't be turned all the way off, and it constantly interferes all the way around the racetrack. Coming out of a Miata and a BRZ, it just feels so numb. The steering feels numb, the suspension feels numb, there's this numb understeer. It's quiet and smooth, but it's not a satisfying track car. In the Miata you feel like you're going 1,000 mph—in a good way—but in this car you feel like you're wrestling a hippo."
Damn that's cold. But frankly it's not surprising to those of us in the "if it's not lightweight and rear wheel drive, it's crap" camp :D

xmadror 06-01-2015 10:00 AM
I had a '99 miata before my BRZ and the body roll was the one thing I hated the most.

Once used to it, it wasn't too bad but it was definitely not a good thing.
Early on with every curve you had the impression you weren't gonna make it but then you'd reach maximum body roll and would instantly gain extra grip. It was a weird feeling. But it was great to scare whoever was riding with me!

The rigidity of the chassis is one of the thing I like the most about my BRZ.

snow 06-01-2015 10:11 AM
Been there done that with the Miata. Fun car to drive but I'll keep my FRS.

bfrank1972 06-01-2015 10:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deslock (Post 2269656)
What I posted at miata.net (comparing the new Miata to the previous one):



The FT86 is the best reasonably priced 4 seater you can get. The Miata is the best reasonably priced car you can get.

I adore my BRZ, but once I no longer need rear seats, I'll be back in a Miata.
Thank you. One of the PRIMARY criteria that made me decide on an FR-S vs something like an S2000 etc - rear seats! Despite everybody's moaning about rear seats being unusable, I carry my kids around in the back everywhere. Leg room behind me is basically non-existent (I'm 6'2") but the seats themselves are quite deep and my girls can sit cross legged very comfortably.

Turbowned 06-01-2015 11:52 AM
Healthy competition is certainly a good thing; it means Subaru and Toyota can't rest on their laurels. They'll have to spruce up the BRZ/FR-S to keep it competitive and relevant.

Sideways&Smiling 06-01-2015 12:11 PM
Or you can just get a used S2000, which has a better power-to-weight ratio, a better engine, far less body roll, and costs a lot less now. :D

lol jk (kinda). I will still go out and test drive the Miata when it's in at local dealers.

tennisfreak 06-01-2015 12:37 PM
Faster 0-60
Faster 1/4 mile
Faster lap time around Willow Springs
Shorter stopping distance
No flat spot in torque curve

Priced even with the twins

Pretty darn good work from Mazda.

If you can get by with 2 seats then the Miata is the best choice.

JS + BRZ 06-01-2015 12:49 PM
I love both cars. Miata has been my favorite cars all time.

But I do drive my BRZ everyday and take it to the track 6-7 times a year. I keep my BRZ for sure. :D

Love how we are getting so many options in the market! It's always a good thing.

Good job, Mazda!

Cope52 06-01-2015 01:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tennisfreak (Post 2269879)
Faster 0-60
Faster 1/4 mile
Faster lap time around Willow Springs
Shorter stopping distance
No flat spot in torque curve

Priced even with the twins

.
Hold on cowboy. Initial tests of new models are always faster. Don't be surprised when the next time they test the car it's 6.2 to 60. And a set of Super Sports on the twins would close the gap on lap times and braking distances. And if you want an LSD on the Miata you're looking at 30 grand. Hey, this is a BRZ site right? :D

tahdizzle 06-01-2015 01:11 PM
Impressed with the numbers. GJ mazda.

krayzie 06-01-2015 01:25 PM
Those cupholders blocking the DVD drive plus the one that hits the passenger's knee lol!

I wish they put the 1.5L in the Miata instead for North America, at least that one can pull into 7000+ rpm and probably much better top end. But noooo cuz of people keep complaining about power.

I hope Toyota and Subaru will never cave in and put a 2.5L 6500rpm redline boxer into the FRS/BRZ for here and ruin it all.

AsianStyle 06-01-2015 02:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cope52 (Post 2269923)
Hold on cowboy. Initial tests of new models are always faster. Don't be surprised when the next time they test the car it's 6.2 to 60. And a set of Super Sports on the twins would close the gap on lap times and braking distances. And if you want an LSD on the Miata you're looking at 30 grand. Hey, this is a BRZ site right? :D
Anyway you look at it. It is still pretty upsetting that the "I don't care about track times/numbers" miata still out performs the twins. For me the miata is a no go due to convertible (hate them) and lack of rear seats (need to be way more compelling to lose all utility ala cayman).

The utility + lesser price allows the twins to make it own case, but getting out muscled by the 155hp 2.0 sky-active engine, which was specifically made for mpg efficiency is quite sad.

Sideways&Smiling 06-01-2015 02:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by krayzie (Post 2269948)
I hope Toyota and Subaru will never cave in and put a 2.5L 6500rpm redline boxer into the FRS/BRZ for here and ruin it all.
Ruin what exactly?

Mr.Impreza 06-01-2015 02:55 PM
2 amazing cars, they are both winners

BRZZZZZZZZZZ 06-01-2015 02:55 PM
Would buy if Canadian Pricing wasn't out to lunch...

Ill have to stick with my NA8 for now.

djsyndrome 06-01-2015 02:57 PM
Summary says it best. If you can live with a 2-seater, get the Miata.

For us, I sometimes have to pick up both of the kids, so the backseat is a requirement. The Miata was never on the radar.

gramicci101 06-01-2015 03:05 PM
Favorite comment:
Quote:
Originally Posted by geardoc
"Does a sporty toy really need rwd?" Do you even need to ask? Bringing the golf is like bringing a spork to a knife fight.
For myself, the BRZ is already pushing my limit for lack of practical usage as an only vehicle; the Miata would be a definite no-go. Plus, I don't fit in them. I do hope that this Miata provides the impetus that Toyobaru needs to make more than aesthetic improvements to our cars though.

sprintertrueno86 06-01-2015 03:21 PM
LOL the twins are officially slower than a Miata

/trolling

Very impressed with the ND. Love how it looks and I can deal with being a 2-seater convertible. Would I trade my BRZ for one? Nope. It would have been a tough choice if they both came out at the same time. Definitely going to test drive one when they're available.

svtfever 06-01-2015 03:28 PM
after reading that, it seems to me that the twins are still the winner and not the mazda. that's the way it read to me.

tahdizzle 06-01-2015 03:50 PM
The article did say that all three agreed that the miata was the better car :P

brianhj 06-01-2015 04:02 PM
Are you 50 years old? Buy a miata

DarkSunrise 06-01-2015 04:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tahdizzle (Post 2270226)
The article did say that all three agreed that the miata was the better car :P
Confusingly 2 of 3 said they would buy the BRZ even though they agree the Miata is the better car and deserved the win. Strange.

Quote:
So we arrive at an interesting result, wherein both Lago and Sandoval would buy the BRZ (this vintage Brit-roadster owner votes Miata) while we unanimously agree the Mazda is the better car and hence deserves the official win.

Pat 06-01-2015 04:17 PM
The new Miata sounds great. But not great for me. I don't want a soft top and chances are there isn't nearly enough headroom for me. Right away either one of those eliminate it from contention for me.

AsianStyle 06-01-2015 04:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSunrise (Post 2270258)
Confusingly 2 of 3 said they would buy the BRZ even though they agree the Miata is the better car and deserved the win. Strange.
When I read it.

It seemed like they believed the BRZ with its utility davantage was better suited for their needs, but agreed the Miata was better for fun possibly.

cdrazic93 06-01-2015 04:19 PM
Interesting the slight snippets they put under first and second place. if its a daily driver; brz is the toy. Other than that the miata has done it again.

Cope52 06-01-2015 04:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSunrise (Post 2270258)
Confusingly 2 of 3 said they would buy the BRZ even though they agree the Miata is the better car and deserved the win. Strange.
Where does it say this? Can't find it.

BRZZZZZZZZZZ 06-01-2015 04:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by brianhj (Post 2270241)
Are you 50 years old? Buy a miata
Miatas are in with the younger crowd, just not the NC and ND...

DarkSunrise 06-01-2015 04:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AsianStyle (Post 2270272)
When I read it.

It seemed like they believed the BRZ with its utility davantage was better suited for their needs, but agreed the Miata was better for fun possibly.
Ah that would make sense.

I still don't really feel the urge to trade in for the ND, although I might consider it if Mazda released a coupe (or a track-approved roll bar option). Listening Mazda? :bonk:

The more I think about it, the car that will likely replace my FR-S one day is the new 1LE Camaro SS. Or possibly a used C7.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cope52 (Post 2270281)
Where does it say this? Can't find it.
I quoted it in my post :)

drewbot 06-01-2015 04:33 PM
I hope this makes someone scratch an itch to get the ND, and puts up their NA2 or NB on sale so I can afford one....

Pat 06-01-2015 04:42 PM
I have trouble understanding how so much of our society views small cars as toys. I realize I'm in the minority here (at least in the U.S.), but the BRZ is my only car. I use it for track days, biking, skiing, road trips, etc. I don't have any problem with lack of space. I'm married, but don't have kids.
:iono:

paiceyfan 06-01-2015 04:44 PM
Need the practicality for picking up my son and doing the weekly grocery shopping while having a decent ride back and forth along the highway and track time when I can get it.


86 for me...


Now, if you want a track car only, which I cannot afford right now...the game changes...

strat61caster 06-01-2015 04:51 PM
Really happy to see that Mazda brought their A-game and that stock for stock the ND gives the 86 a run for it's money, the next few years will be fun.

I highly doubt anybody at Toyobaru is scrambling to get an update out, they have a brother not a competitor, I posted as such in the ND thread, MT's ranking makes perfect sense imo, different cars with a different purpose and a different set of compromises.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sideways&Smiling (Post 2270060)
Ruin what exactly?
“Yet when I meet up with rival sports car chief engineers (and we do at various times around the world), we all talk about what we call the Devil’s Cycle of ever-increasing power, speed, weight and price."

-Tetsuya Tada Source

Edit: A larger displacement engine would incur additional taxation and fees in most markets, it would likely be a U.S. special which of course means higher prices as they must go through all the engineering work testing and certification to make it work, and with the increased cost you better increase the amenities to match the price which means you get a weight increase which means it got slower which means you better add more power and then oh no the price went up again... And you get an M3 "sports car" that weighs 3,500 lbs.

BRZZZZZZZZZZ 06-01-2015 04:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by drewbot (Post 2270309)
I hope this makes someone scratch an itch to get the ND, and puts up their NA2 or NB on sale so I can afford one....
Would have made me sell my NA8 if the pricing wasn't berserk.

drewbot 06-01-2015 05:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRZZZZZZZZZZ (Post 2270341)
Would have made me sell my NA8 if the pricing wasn't berserk.
omg...$40,000 for the GT trim???? :iono:

BRZZZZZZZZZZ 06-01-2015 05:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by drewbot (Post 2270349)
omg...$40,000 for the GT trim???? :iono:
I know right. Maybe they could have tempted me at $35k but $40k is bonkers.


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