Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community - FT86CLUB
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Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community - FT86CLUB (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/index.php)
-   Other Vehicles & General Automotive Discussions (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=6)
-   -   US Owners: Tune While You Still Can!! (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87043)

HunterGreene 04-20-2015 04:54 PM
US Owners: Tune While You Still Can!!
 
Apologies for the overly-dramatic thread title, but our ability in the US to tune our ECUs could be going away soon due to Auto makers pushing for stricter copyright laws in the USA regarding ECU programming.

http://www.autoblog.com/2015/04/20/a...s-car-repairs/

Personally, I don't think this will end up becoming a real law (and I really hope not). I understand the motivation for their proposed changes, but at the same time its very transparent that this is about profits, not safety or legal liability.

strat61caster 04-20-2015 05:20 PM
Apple couldn't stop people from jailbreaking iphones.

No way in hell automakers are going to keep people from modifying cars.

HunterGreene 04-21-2015 09:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by strat61caster (Post 2219973)
Apple couldn't stop people from jailbreaking iphones.

No way in hell automakers are going to keep people from modifying cars.
I agree, but it can't hurt to get the word spread to our fellow owners.

Tcoat 04-21-2015 09:35 AM
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87065

HunterGreene 04-21-2015 09:42 AM
Hey, I posted it first! I can't help that I posted it in the wrong section! :lol:

EDIT: Well, at least this thread hasn't turned into a political discussion shitstorm. That, and I'm totally convinced at this point that certain members of this form (such as the OP of the other thread), are just curmudgeonly old men who just want to yell at "those damn kids" to "Get off my lawn!" while not willing to actually do anything about it.

Tcoat 04-21-2015 09:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HunterGreene (Post 2220948)
Hey, I posted it first! I can't help that I posted it in the wrong section! :lol:
Wasn't a criticism as this is sort of one of those topics that needs a little more coverage than it will get hidden in a tech thread. Just wanted people to know there was more discussion available.
Not like you were posting yet another "the new BRZ is confirmed" or "let's all talk about how beautiful or car is" thread! Oh Oh or another "use this gas for no crickets" one!

HunterGreene 04-21-2015 09:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tcoat (Post 2220957)
Wasn't a criticism as this is sort of one of those topics that needs a little more coverage than it will get hidden in a tech thread. Just wanted people to know there was more discussion available.
Not like you were posting yet another "the new BRZ is confirmed" or "let's all talk about how beautiful or car is" thread!
I appreciate your support. I like to make at least 5% of my posts actually matter.

f0rge 04-21-2015 01:19 PM
Very disturbing trend of not being able to do what I want with my own property.

EULAs don't hold up in court so I guess now they're trying to make it law?

Special_K 04-21-2015 01:59 PM
**In for the thread that doesn't suggest hanging people from trees.**
While I respect companies wanting to protect what they create, I really don't think laws like what's being proposed are going to stop anyone, all it will do in the end is make criminals out of the lot of us.

Enthusiasts of any type are going to do whatever they damn well please with the products they buy. Look at all the other modifications that are not legal that we do to our cars anyway: Tint, FI, ride height, smoked lights, exhaust, etc.

When something like this becomes illegal, then people go to back alley dealings and end up with a product (tune) that could be potentially unsafe simply because they are no longer publicly published, documented, tested, and critiqued.

Tcoat 04-21-2015 02:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Special_K (Post 2221335)
**In for the thread that doesn't suggest hanging people from trees.**
.
Holy crap I should have reread that other thread before I linked it! A lot of shit went down last night.

stugray 04-21-2015 02:15 PM
I can understand the intellectual property issue.
And I have always wondered if (or when) Toybaru was going to crack down on exchanging ROMs online, but luckily they havent yet.

One way that they could make it illegal to even reverse engineer the ROMs would be to encrypt the ROM.
Then decrypting it would be a violation of the DMCA and they wouldnt need any new laws in the US.

gramicci101 04-21-2015 02:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Special_K (Post 2221335)
While I respect companies wanting to protect what they create, I really don't think laws like what's being proposed are going to stop anyone, all it will do in the end is make criminals out of the lot of us.
It may not stop everybody, but it will become much more difficult across the board and stop most people. If it's illegal to access or modify the ECU, then companies won't even try because that opens them up to liabilities. So there go companies like ECUtek and Openflash, two of the most widely used and easiest to use tuning solutions for our cars.

Piggyback chips might squeak in under the law, because they don't modify the ECU itself, only the signals coming in and out of the ECU. But they're not as flexible or user-friendly as the two listed above. A standalone ECU such as MOTEC or Hydra EMS bypasses the law completely, but that's a much higher price tag and is much more complicated for basic users who just want a stage 1 or 2 reflash and maybe launch control.

Look at tuning solutions for the Toyota Tundra. There are a few piggyback chips that are iffy on what you get, and there are complete ECU swaps. There is no middle ground, because the ECU is so tightly locked down.

Special_K 04-21-2015 02:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tcoat (Post 2221349)
Holy crap I should have reread that other thread before I linked it! A lot of shit went down last night.
Yea thread could set a land speed record for time taken to go from civil to ugly. I was simultaneously impressed and repulsed. :barf:

Quote:
Originally Posted by gramicci101 (Post 2221369)
It may not stop everybody, but it will become much more difficult across the board and stop most people. If it's illegal to access or modify the ECU, then companies won't even try because that opens them up to liabilities. So there go companies like ECUtek and Openflash, two of the most widely used and easiest to use tuning solutions for our cars.

Piggyback chips might squeak in under the law, because they don't modify the ECU itself, only the signals coming in and out of the ECU. But they're not as flexible or user-friendly as the two listed above. A standalone ECU such as MOTEC or Hydra EMS bypasses the law completely, but that's a much higher price tag and is much more complicated for basic users who just want a stage 1 or 2 reflash and maybe launch control.

Look at tuning solutions for the Toyota Tundra. There are a few piggyback chips that are iffy on what you get, and there are complete ECU swaps. There is no middle ground, because the ECU is so tightly locked down.
And that's where it could ultimately hurt enthusiasts and their cars. As of now, we have legitimate and safe (mostly) tunes from respected companies. Take that away and people may end up with half-assed ghetto tunes that end up blowing something up.

mav1178 04-21-2015 02:52 PM
As I mentioned in the other thread, this is only an issue for those flashing the stock ECU.

While I see this as an issue for future owners, I don't think this is an issue for current owners as there is nothing in current ownership materials that states "ECU code is used under license from (insert random auto maker here)"

To get to the point of banning owners from tuning, they'd have to have our consent and agreement that the ECU code is used under a license and not under an ownership.

-alex


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