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Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community - FT86CLUB (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/index.php)
-   Suspension | Chassis | Brakes -- Sponsored by 949 Racing (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=59)
-   -   Truth about using STI Brembos on the twins (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=86917)

gramicci101 04-20-2015 07:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSG Mike (Post 2220023)
The catch is that it's a race part, and not suitable for street use in any part of the country that sees road salt or snow.
What's your opinion of the AP Racing Factory BBK (330x26mm) vs. the Sprint (299x32mm)?

I assume the Factory will do better than the Sprint in salty environments due to the caliper being painted instead of anodized, but what about heat dissipation? Does the additional 31mm diameter of the rotor make up for the decreased width? Is the CP8350 caliper of the Sprint more capable than the CP6628 caliper of the Factory kit?

CSG Mike 04-20-2015 07:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gramicci101 (Post 2220044)
What's your opinion of the AP Racing Factory BBK (330x26mm) vs. the Sprint (299x32mm)?

I assume the Factory will do better than the Sprint in salty environments due to the caliper being painted instead of anodized, but what about heat dissipation? Does the additional 31mm diameter of the rotor make up for the decreased width? Is the CP8350 caliper of the Sprint more capable than the CP6628 caliper of the Factory kit?
It actually has more heat sink mass, but less heat dissipation capacity. For me, I need both. For most people, the Factory system will be just fine.

We sell both, as well as the entire Brembo lineup. As with everything else, we only sell products we are comfortable backing with both our tech support and our confidence.

Canehda 04-20-2015 07:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSG Mike (Post 2220023)
It's cheaper up front, but the pads are smaller, while costing more, and the replacement rotors also cost more. The AP Sprint retains factory bias, includes lines, and has more heat dissipation capacity. The catch is that it's a race part, and not suitable for street use in any part of the country that sees road salt or snow.

The cost of consumables are likely moot for a street car, but for a car that sees any track time *at all* at ANY level of skill, there will be a big difference in consumable cost. By the time you do your first pad change on the AP, you've already made up the difference in initial cost.

Oh, and we're also comparing new vs used. Kinda like a S2000 vs FRS debate.
I think that is what I am trying to say, its a situational debate! I would love for my BRZ to be track only so I could have APs and get the *Best* performance brakes, however my car is a daily throughout the winter so I am forced to compromise. Like you said this is like an S2000 vs BRZ debate, there is no clear better for every single person, only a bunch of "betters" for a particular attribute. As a track only setup, the STI brembos are a compromise compared to APs and I'm certain no one here will argue that, but I dont believe that the swap is useless/inherently dangerous as the article makes it out to be.

I think your last comment was a very fair comparison of the two and its all that should really be said about each big brake route, there are pros and cons for each route and the consumer needs to decide on what compromises they are willing to make for their personal needs :cheers:

Racecomp Engineering 04-20-2015 07:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuchullain (Post 2220002)
According to the math I did, and the "brakemath" sheet off NASIOC, the front and rear STi swap nets a shift of about 16% forward bias. The STi front + WRX 2 pot rear nets ~10% forward shift. This math makes a bunch of assumptions, but it should be in the ballpark without doing more than 2 mins worth of work.
Thanks, sounds about right to me from what I remember.

So...no the car won't explode on the way to the supermarket, but there is a shift in brake bias that I don't like. I try to put parts on my cars with a functional effect that I do like. :iono: That's my priority.

That's really all I need. No further discussion on my end. I won't raise hell if you put them on your car and install them correctly, but if you ask my opinion I'll tell you.

- Andy

8R6 04-20-2015 07:39 PM
on a side note, brembos made for OE's are not the same level as brembos made for aftermarket upgrades. the brembo OE+ stuff is actually handled completely separately from their aftermarket performance division.

CSG Mike 04-20-2015 08:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRGT86 (Post 2220085)
on a side note, brembos made for OE's are not the same level as brembos made for aftermarket upgrades. the brembo OE+ stuff is actually handled completely separately from their aftermarket performance division.
This. :thumbsup:

The Racers Line 04-20-2015 08:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRGT86 (Post 2220085)
on a side note, brembos made for OE's are not the same level as brembos made for aftermarket upgrades. the brembo OE+ stuff is actually handled completely separately from their aftermarket performance division.
Exactly, and the price reflects that quite well.

On my own side note again, I have them on my car, with track pads and they are not safe. If I could get a video of the way the car feels under hard braking I would, but seriously, it upsets the balance quite bad.

Use them on the street all day long with proper mounting and pads, but mine won't see another track day.

acro 04-20-2015 09:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by protpibe (Post 2219874)
The fear mongering in this thread is out of control.

Brakes are the only difference between life and death?

Not your skill, other drivers skill, the condition of your tires, the overall state of repair of your car, the state of repair/condition of everyone elses vehicles, changing weather, etc etc etc etc etc.

No, not any of those things. A properly installed caliper that has the potential to shift the bias forwards a bit is what's going to cause your death.

How hard do you weekend warriors push your car at the track?? I went to 4 or 5 hot lap sessions last summer and I can say with certainty that i'm completely happy at 80-90% of the cars limit lol. Apparently all the Schumachers out there are trail braking on the ragged edge with their dailys lol

Please don't take offence to my post, I'm just trying to be as light hearted as possible with this discussion by injecting some sarcasm :cheers:
No fear mongering, just the truth, every time you dive into a corner at a 100+mph you brakes need to work well.

acro 04-20-2015 09:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by protpibe (Post 2219928)
No, thats not what he was saying.

This is a thread discussing installing STI Brembos onto the twins, and the potential negatives assuming they were properly installed. No one is talking about mechanical ability and the potential of INCORRECTLY installed brakes.

He posted a video of a purpose built race car flying into a wall @ 100mph after experiencing a total brake failure.

The two are not related whatsoever lmao

How will greater front bias cause my car to inexplicably lose ALL brake force and fly into a wall?
What wootwoot was saying is definetly part of it

King Tut 04-21-2015 12:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Racers Line (Post 2220149)
Exactly, and the price reflects that quite well.

On my own side note again, I have them on my car, with track pads and they are not safe. If I could get a video of the way the car feels under hard braking I would, but seriously, it upsets the balance quite bad.

Use them on the street all day long with proper mounting and pads, but mine won't see another track day.
Front and rear? What pads front and rear?

The Racers Line 04-21-2015 02:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by King Tut (Post 2220490)
Front and rear? What pads front and rear?
Front and rear with Winmax W4's. I was running staggered compound pads on the street without issue. Completely changed with equal track pads and track time. I'm very hard on my brakes as well.

Poodles 04-23-2015 08:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSG Mike (Post 2219150)
It's about the same as saying that understeer is safer than oversteer. Both have their inherent pros and cons.
True, but in a panic brake situation, having the back lock up is a very bad thing. Been in a truck with a bad proportioning valve in that situation (and din't know about it as I never was in that sort of situation) and it wasn't fun being completely sideways to the flow of traffic...

It's even scarier on 2 wheels as a buddy of mine learned while he was starting to learn how to ride.

CSG Mike 04-23-2015 10:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poodles (Post 2224922)
True, but in a panic brake situation, having the back lock up is a very bad thing. Been in a truck with a bad proportioning valve in that situation (and din't know about it as I never was in that sort of situation) and it wasn't fun being completely sideways to the flow of traffic...

It's even scarier on 2 wheels as a buddy of mine learned while he was starting to learn how to ride.
So lets say you're in a panic brake situation on the highway in Texas. 80 MPH to Zero at full ABS.

Your front bias system, with street pads, overworks the fronts. You safely decelerate to 30mph from 80mph without issue, but now the fronts overheat, and stop working as hard. Now you have a rear brake bias for the remaining 30mph of braking, and you don't brake nearly as quickly with a rear brake bias.

Lets go further and say you rear end the person in front of you, and they file a lawsuit. They can say that you're negligent due to the "upgraded" inappropriately sized brakes on your car...

Hypothetical, and unlikely, but we have airbags in our cars for that hypothetical and unlikely situation right?

Jive Turkey 04-23-2015 11:40 PM
you and i both know you're reaching a bit here.

i've had brembos mounted the right way for about 2 years now daily driven in NJ and NYC. had plenty of panic situations and etc, not one single hick up. car stops on the dime every time. the only time i had issue was when it was wet on snow tires and i got cut off while i was going about 60, panic braked and slid for a short second, but that has more to do with tires.

i'm not saying its a great choice, but some of the stuff in this thread is just ridiculous. this is a perfectly reasonable upgrade for the average enthusiast like myself who does only a few DE's days a summer and the rest is auto-x and street driving.


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