Electric Supercharger - Market Speculation
 

So, I was kind of thinking about this the other day. It's a rather simple idea so bear with me here :eyebulge:

Given the success of the "Full Throttle Electric Supercharger". In case you missed it...

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39719

Why aren't major companies investing resources into the electric supercharger market? I'm no FI guru, but just based off popularity its by far the bread winner coming in at 385 pages & rightfully so I think.

- Gains: Tuned w/ headers on 93 you net around 50whp & 60wtq peak power. You also net lots of area under the curve.

- Cost Effective: ~$2200 roughly

- Easy to Install

- Less Failure Modes

^These are just a few of the positives, I'm sure there are more.

To me it seems the most practical for the everyday driver. So I'm just begging the question why aren't other companies investing time and resources to produce a more competitive market in this segment?

IMO it could have a lot to do with public perception. It's the same reasoning stopping every super-car manufacturer from making a pure electric super-car. Tesla has proven it's possible, but people want that sound, the rumble, and most importantly, for a long time, electric cars have been associated with economy and have been portrayed as the more environmentally friendly alternative to gas and diesel.

The electric supercharger works, and works well, but people don't want to spend money on something new. They want whats tried and true.

Eh that's understandable, but when you say public perception I think of non-car enthusiasts. When I think of non-car enthusiasts I think of consumers that wouldn't spend time/money tuning or modding their car. Most would agree that electric power can offer instant power, hence the popularity of the system for this platform.

The engineering is there, the numbers are there, the system keeps evolving. I don't know whats stopping larger comapnies lol. You'd think they'd want a slice of the pie, shit I would while product development is still in its infancy.

I really find it hilarious when You Go To any of the ESC's Youtube video's You have Guy's in the comments WHO say It's snake Oil and are scientifically trying To prove why the esc cant and wont work :D i Guess It's al the previous battery powered fans that really fucked up the credibility of This kit...Alot of People wont even believe It really Works even when respected tuners post the video's :p anyway i think the Ebay E fans are Just To fresh in the memory for alot of People At the moment for This kit To Be believabe and viable in todays market.

This is exactly what I was getting at. Keyboard warriors who haven't done any research. . .but they sure have seen that Mighty Car Mods video debunking it! They're going to spread rumors, create bad press and possibly kill any product before it has a chance.

That is an issue, and I think of people who don't know much about cars, but have the money and know a tuning firm or well respected shop that will do it for them. The electric supercharger would be a hard sell to them. They don't want to hear about new stuff, they want the name of a well respected, well known company, with a well known concept or product. People can be weird sometimes.

All that being said, I wouldn't be surprised if there were a few guys at some of the big name companies working behind closed doors, trying to figure out how the hell robtfss is doing all that, and doing it so well. If not for an actual product, just to see how it's working as well as it does. At least I hope they are trying it!

ESC is ok for small power gains but I don't think an ESC can push out more than 7 psi on a consistent everyday basis.... reliably anyways.

7 psi is on the very low end of Turbo's and Superchargers.

Also, with an ESC the batteries are expensive. Like $200-300 for a set and they have to be replaced every 2-3 years iirc. That cost adds up.

To me, ESC's will always be a niche product. I don't think it will ever be found in stock cars out of the factory. The cost savings (the main benefit) is not enough.

As far as electric cars and electric super cars go, its much more than perception. There's not that many electric charging stations out there. Also, charging technology is up to snuff..... using a 240 volt outlet, it takes 1 hour to charge the Tesla to go 31 miles. No one's going to buy that. Who wants to wait 1 hour to charge a car so it can go only an additional 31 miles? Sure you can go to a Tesla Supercharging station but there are not that many out there so that means you basically have to plan your driving around those Supercharging stations.

Speaking of uninformed public. I think you may have some bad information.

To clear some things up.

1. The limitation that is keeping me from producing over 7 lbs of boost isn't some physical limit but instead simply having enough juice to power a larger electric motor and it's matched centrifugal compressor. This is a matter of battery cost aligning with the overall goals of the Phantom ESC kit (which is to say, low cost, low complexity, and working with OEM hardware (clutch, internals, etc)). Nothing less/more, and not some kind of hard limit.

Still, keep in mind that the 5 PSI my Phantom ESC kit outputs is virtually non-parasitic (unlike traditional F.I.). Because of this every bit of boost matters whereas with a belt driven SC or Turbo there are losses in creating their boost that eat into total output & performance. Also, since an electric motor produces 100% torque at 1 RPM and the compressor instantly begins compressing air. To even further advance this, the compressor can be pre-spooled. What this means is that max boost is available almost immediately. Neither a turbo or SC can match the torque curve of an ESC. This is why Ferrari. McClaren, and Porsche "torque fill" with electric motors in their most extreme models. The 5 PSI from my Phantom ESC is roughly equivalent to 7-8 PSI of a traditional SC or Turbo. If I was producing over 8 PSI with the ESC, I'd be well over 300 BHP.

2. The batteries for my kit are not expensive and do not cost $300 for a set and require replacement every 2-3 years. The base kit batteries cost $125. I've heard nothing ever about a 2-3 year replacement cycle. BTW, I've been running my kit since last Feb 2014.

The base kit requires 2 of these @ $39 ea.
http://www.atbatt.com/power-sonic-12...oduct=PS-12180

and 1 of these @ $45
http://www.atbatt.com/power-sonic-ps...id-battery.asp

You can upgrade your batteries if you like, but that's not required.

3. ESCs are new yes, but niche... nope.
Many OEMs have ESCs in the near pipeline for production vehicles. @Robftss is the first person to successfully bring a commercial aftermarket ESC kit to the masses. Since then @Shiv@Openflash has adapted the Phantom kit for use in the NC Miata which he has successfully commercially adapted. Shiv is also introducing Electronic motor control to the compressor to make this kit Full time F.I. He's also installed the kit in his Elise, and most recently twin charged his Audi R8 (see below).

This kit is being aggressively developed, and improved. I'd be willing to bet that in a year's time, there will be more Phantom ESC kits in the wild than many of the traditional F.I. kits currently offered.

Volvo's New Electric Supercharger - What is it?
http://autoweek.com/article/car-news...rger-explained

Next Audi Q7 to Debut with Electric Turbocharger?
http://www.autoblog.com/2014/06/22/a...harger-report/

Audi Electric Bi-Turbo Engine Revealed
http://www.worldcarfans.com/11209204...ngine-revealed

Audi brings its electric turbocharger closer to production with RS 5 TDI concept
http://www.gizmag.com/audi-electric-...s-5-tdi/32619/

Electric Supercharger Boosts Torque 50% and Reduces CO2 by 20%
http://www.treehugger.com/cars/elect...co2-by-20.html

HyBoost shows off electric supercharger in Ford Focus
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...g-for-everyone

Next Subaru WRX to Use Electric Turbocharger (older article)
http://www.autoblog.com/2012/05/03/n...-turbocharger/

Will BMW's Electric Turbocharger End Turbo Lag?
http://jalopnik.com/5855317/will-bmw...-end-turbo-lag

BMW Pairs Electric & Traditional Turbos to Boost Efficiency
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/...ost-efficiency

http://i.imgur.com/T9mCPio.jpg?3

http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k4...6/IMG_0343.jpg


http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k4...6/IMG_0612.jpg

http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k4...6/IMG_0606.jpg

If the size of the battery is what is preventing the Phantom ESC from pushing more than 5 psi than that IS a physical limitation.

The batteries for the Phantom ESC V2 ARE $300.

1 small starter battery, $110: http://www.batterymart.com/p-odyssey-pc680-battery.html

2 dump batteries, $100 each: http://www.batterymart.com/p-Big-Cra...6-Battery.html

About the 'OEM Electric Superchargers': In the pipeline? There's a difference between research and actually having something for production. You saw the BRZ Sti concept car right? So I guess the 450hp BRZ STi is in the pipeline and going to be produced for the masses right?

Those electric supercharger OEM systems are nice but most of examples you provided have very little to do with the Phantom Supercharger. The Phantom Supercharger is powered by batteries. Most of the examples you gave actually have turbochargers powering an electric supercharger.

And all of them are in development, meaning they might not even make it to production. These systems, if produced, will be complicated and expensive.

1. The boost output could be increased if Rob / Shiv feel that the additional cost of larger batteries fit the profile of their products. It's not as if greater battery capacity doesn't exist. Greater battery capacity would simply increase the price. This is not a physical limitation, it's a cost consideration.

2. No, a person doesn't have to buy v2 batteries if they don't choose to. I run a mix of v1 and v2 batteries of my choosing. It would have been fine to continue running my original v1 batteries (the ones I listed). This equipment is there at my own discretion. The v1's worked just fine and Rob still has them posted on his updated site. http://www.phantomsuperchargers.com/batteries.html . Update. The 1.5 upgrade is now being sold as part of the most recent kit. Those batteries are $22 each. http://www.atbatt.com/power-sonic-ps...id-battery.asp http://www.phantomsuperchargers.com/...ubaru-brz.html

3. Your point was ESCs will always be a niche product. But when multiple OEMs are working on similar tech all at once, it points directly at the mainstream. However even if you choose to discard that evidence we can simply look at the 30+ Phantom '86 kits and who knows how many Miata OpenFlash kits in the wild plus the likely 100+ buyers on waiting lists. This is with practically no advertising (just word of mouth). That enthusiasm points towards a mainstream arc and not a niche product.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...postcount=8449

http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=567709

IMO the current facts don't support your conclusion, you may not agree with that and that's ok. Getting accurate info out there is objective my reply, not to change your mind.

Sorry you sound like a fanboy. 30+ ESC kits is hardly indicative of something going mainstream. In fact, that's a sign of a niche product if I ever saw one.

And look at how slowly they are being produced (6-8 month waiting list; bugs still being worked out).... its not ready for primetime.

About ESC batteries: The Phantom V1 is no longer being produced. Only V2 kits are being sold and produced now (and again, at a very slow pace..... 6-8 month waiting list). Why would someone mix V1 and V2 batteries in a V2 kit?

About OEM ESC's: Those examples you gave are not pure ESC's, they are turbo kit/ESC hybrids. Pure ESC's (which is what the OP meant) will always be niche. I would be shocked if a car manufacturer produced a car with a pure ESC that's battery powered (as opposed to powered by a turbocharger).

Not a fanboy but a 1st batch owner (Since Feb 2014). My first hand experience and attention to this products' development have informed my opinion. What's informing yours? I've been very satisfied, and have seen the momentum for Rob & Shiv's ESC integrations build enough to understand that its' on a strong upswing. The Phantom ESC kit is an FI option that

• Costs about $2000
• Makes just enough power to not require supporting upgrades (clutch, axles, tires, etc)
• Has a more enjoyable torque curve than the next closest competitors
• Can be self installed in 2 hours
• Can be self removed in 30 minutes
• Adds very little weight
• Adds much less complexity than other FI options
• Is likely (much) more reliable than other FI options

Sales of the Phantom ESC have only to be limited by production, not the markets' opinion of the kit. By carefully and deliberately producing small batches, Rob has ensured early customer support, product quality, and flow rate are controlled. This is good business practice, not a sign of slow uptake.

Also, for an entirely new F.I. technology, 30+ kits + 100 person waiting list in 1 year is phenomenal. Individually how many installed Innovative kits are on this board? How many individually installed Greddy, SBD, FBM, etc?

Like I said, I'm not trying to convince you of my point, I can handle you having your own perspective (even if your post history suggests a hard bias and combativeness against anything OpenFlash). I simply disagree with your conclusions. I think your posts points are guided by that aforementioned bias and by being too far removed from the actual product to be very meaningful. I mean do you own a kit? Ok, do you have a friend that does? Have you drove or ridden in an equipped car? Have you seen a installed kit in person? Have you read through the Phantom ESC thread? Once again, what's informing your conclusion?

I am definitely looking forward to seeing where all this lands over the years. Personally I don't see R&D, production, orders, or additional integrations stopping or even slowing. 14 months ago in the Phantom ESC thread there were a bunch of naysayers. Later the same appeared in the OpenFlashESC Miata threads. Where are those people now? They're certainly not posting in those threads anymore. I wonder why? Look, I'm all for you also watching the continued evolution of this tech. I'm definitely interested in hearing what you'll have to say about it come April 2016.
:popcorn:

My suggestion: Don't feed the troll :)

Is there really a 100+ person waiting list? How long would that be?
@DAEMANO Can you take me on a test ride? That would seal the deal for me.

I think the main issue for me is, if I'm not mistaken this only activates under full throttle. I'd prefer something a bit more linear.

I wonder if it'd be possible to re-map the throttle to open fully by 50% pedal travel. Then progressively introduce boost from the electric SC over the remaining 50% pedal.

Not sure if this is technically feasibly, just thinking out loud...

That is being worked on with the Procede controller, if I'm not mistaken.

Give me 7-9 psi at redline built up progressively through the power band, batteries that last 30 minutes at Road Atlanta where I'm WOT for 75% of every lap, and a waiting list that's not almost a year long.

:iono:

This would all be nice. That being said ,as a previous phantom owner, for the price the kit is unbeatable. Really changes the car.

Yes Shiv is working on this as we speak

Actually, this is pretty much how the kit currently available works. @Robftss developed a two stage Partial Throttle Switch (PTS). So with my kit the ESC gives about 40% boost at 65% throttle and 100% boost at WOT. The boost feels natural and progressive. Now speaking of progress...

As a few ppl have mentioned @Shiv@Openflash has taken this a bit further, and will very soon be releasing (weeks?) an electronic controller that replaces the partial throttle switch entirely. This controller makes the ESC kit full time F.I. This is under his Proceed brand. Details for NC Miata are here: http://forum.miata.net/vb/showpost.p...&postcount=303 . For FT86 I believe @fenton is either testing, perhaps he can chime in. In the meanwhile, here is a big box o' Proceed controller stuffs.

http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k4...6/IMG_0832.jpg

1. Yes, the waiting list is that long.

92 people for FT86
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...postcount=8449

...and I don't know how long for Miatas.
http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread...567709&page=13

The wait will be determined by production rate. Currently Rob is committed to a slow production rate, but that could change. Rob has a plan that's for sure.

2. Yes, I can take you on a test ride, don't mind at all.
We just have to get together. PM me and we can figure it out.

Yeah yeah. Anybody who criticizes what you do is a troll right?

He's "committed to a slow rate of production" because the Phantom Electric Supercharger is still being beta tested by people who pay thousands of dollars. Bugs are still being worked out. Thousands of dollars to be a beta tester for something that only produces 5 psi? Doesn't make much sense.

Like I said, the Phantom Electric Supercharger is not ready for primetime.

Not to give too much away, but there is a path to what you're asking for, it's all a matter of if the developers choose to take up this goal and have the time it will take to test and package this all together. Battery costs climb dramatically when powering larger or multiple motors. If an ESCs' inherent strengths (very low cost, low RPM torque, extremely low weight, lesser complexity, greater reliability) override that increased cost, it could be worth it. As mentioned the current kit is designed to be inexpensive. Those upgrades could add $1000+ to the cost. Funny thing is, that extra cost would still makes an ESC cheaper across the board than the next least expensive FI option. It'll be up to @Robftss and @Shiv@Openflash to decide if they want to bring a product like this to market.

What will be available (as soon as the Proceed controllers are out) is 5.0lbs of non-parasitic boost (about 230 WHP/ 205 WTQ on e85) that peaks at 3400 RPM and drops to 1.7-2 PSI at redline progressively through the powerband that could last your full session (with the Aux charger upgrade) but would have to be tested at your track with your driving style to know for sure. This is something that could be done if I could either, get my car to ATL or get you to CA, haha.

I wouldn't really say it is still being tested unless you consider it a longevity test. I have not seen any "bugs" that had to be changed due to widespread faults or failures since maybe the first version 1.0. Every modification that has come out since then has been mods which provide better ease of use, performance upgrades, increased reliability or new features. If he/they wanted to, the older (my current version) esc would have and still could be a viable product. The original xbox started with version 1.0 and ended up a 1.7 by the end of it's production, I wouldn't call version 1.0-1.6 beta versions, just less advanced.
Regardless of the amount of pressure it creates, It is one of if not the best dollar per whp ratio modifications available on this platform. Following your argument, a large percentage of all the intake and exhaust mods don't make sense either as they only gain ~5-20 whp and can and do cost thousands of dollars. (of course to be considered is Where the power is being made)

Aux chargers still overheating on track without supplemental cooling?

I'm already at 205whp on E85. I'm not sure +25whp is worth 2 grand and a year of waiting plus lots of DIY solutions to existing issues with the system. The extra low end torque is nice but again the way the boost tapers off on this thing and the time my car spends in the upper RPMs on track just doesn't make sense. A Rotrex SC kit for ~50% more cost is the best solution as the boost ramps up progressively and holds 9psi at redline and makes over 300whp with E85.

On thermal limits.
I don't think there was ever an Aux charger that overheated on the track. What you may be remembering is the Primary controller on nlowell's car many months ago that reached it's thermal limit during his lapping sessions. The thermal limit on the primary charger shuts off boost at a specific limit. So two improvements were made here, the addition of the Aux charger to split the charging load across two devices as well as the new primary controller has had it's thermal limits increased (i'll let @fenton or @Robftss speak to that).

The only DIY solution I've ever seen for any issue was nlowell building a duct to pipe fresh air to his Primary controller. This was his experiment alone. Importantly, when you mention "lots of DIY solutions to existing issues with the system" what other issues are you referring to?

On power output, I think it's great that people have their own choices of power options. Let's look at costs.

E85 running on a flex fuel sensor and ECUtek tune - 205 WHP at what total cost of the sensor + tune + license + cable + installation? $1000 - $1500?

E85 running on OFT + Phantom ESC, easy self install, with OTS tune - apx 230 WHP at $2200.00.

Don't get me wrong. I would love full flex fuel support (E0 to E85), and I could get that if I switched tuning options. OpenFlash gives me e50 to e85 which has been livable at no extra cost. One day this may be available on the OFT or with the Proceed controller. We'll see.

On ESC vs Rotrex FI
What Rotrex solution is available for 50% more? That would be roughly $3350.

The JR Kit is generally about $5000 with a tune and $4000 without one. Add tune and install (let's say 5-7 hours @ $100/hr. for a decent shop) and you're knocking on the door of $6000. http://counterspacegarage.com/jackso...s-brz-frs.html

The Kraftwerks kit is $4795 with a tune as well, not including installation. Add installation and you're in the area of $5500
http://store.kraftwerksusa.com/super...ng-ecutek.html

Getting back to the OP's question about why more companies aren't pursuing ESC's qualified by it being perfect for the street, my answer would be:
1. R&D takes a lot of time and money. Rob's aftermarket kit has been in development for over 5 years (if my internet sleuthing is correct). Also other people have attempted to make general purpose kits, but have not taken the time to do FULL integrations with specific platforms (make/models). This is what makes Rob & Shiv's kit more ready for mainstream adoption than previous attempts. They're plug and play, inexpensive, and they work exceedingly well for what they're intended for.

2. Marketing is both critical and expensive. Most people, even gearheads, won't take the time to self educate. Instead they'll form opinions based off of what other people they trust might say. To people without this kind of info the decision gets distilled even further stock car = street car, and modified = track car. Rob's original Phantom ESC kit was intended for use on the street where 99% of car buyers spend their time. HOWEVER, the kit's evolution is expanding it's capabilities. The kit is miles more capable today than even where I first purchased, and it's roughly half the cost of traditional FI. Understand this gray area requires time, attention and patience. Most casual buyers won't invest it.

Thanks for clarifying. That primary controller overheating and the ducting solution was indeed what I was referring to. The other issues (poor word choice) just seem to be DIY improvements and additions that are continuously being made to address things like charging, controlling, batteries. I've been following the development on the ESC from the beginning and trying to stay positive while watching the test results roll in and new features roll out.

FlexFuel for me is for safety and convenience. I don't want to run my car low on fuel on track and I don't have access to E85 at the track so I always have to switch at some point. I want to be sure my AFR and timing are spot on according to the exact ethanol content I'm running.

Unfortunately OFT cannot do FlexFuel and the reference the custom maps required.

I was going off the average $2000 cost of the ESC kit in it's entirety compared to the JRSC kit cost of $4000 without a tune, self installed which most choose people do in about 8 hours alone and 5-6 hours with a buddy, since it's the least complex "full-time" FI available.

+1. Hell, I wouldn't even mind the waiting list if this were possible.

2000 to 4000 is not 50% increase it's 100% more increase. Go back to kindergarden math :) :) :) 50 % increase would 2000 plus 2000/2=3000

:bonk:

Pricing should really not be argued. It can be argued in a way that makes the JR kit significantly cheaper.

If you argue in terms of $$$/HP. The JR kit is cheaper than a ESC comparing gains with a stock rating of 160 hp.

And here is the proof that you are a troll.

Stop feeding him, folks.

This thread really isn't about comparing the two kits, parts of the discussion just went that way. To be fair, a person could continuously upgrade the JR kit until it reached a favorable HP output to the comparison. To also be fair, in discussing the "true" costs of the JR kit, it's considerably higher than $4000.

JR Supercharger base kit: $4000
EcuTek Tune (cable, license, tune): $700-$1000 (required)
Flex Fuel Kit + Flex Fuel Tune: $500-$700
That's actually about $5500 to get to theoretical Rotrex setup ATL_BRZ describes above (not $4000, you can't run the FI without a tune, and you can't run e85 in the way stated above without another tune and a flex fuel kit). However you can save some money if you buy the JRSC + Tune + Flex Fuel kit all at the same time and don't do this as an upgrade. That could drop the $5500 cost by $500 give or take.

Installation: Variable, but I wouldn't self install anything as complex as this kit without visiting a mechanic, tuner and dyno. So I'd put the installation number at: $500 - $1000 based on 5-7 hours of labor at a good shop. The ESC install is dead simple, the complexity is low, and the power is made in a way that won't grenade your engine if something goes wrong.

So if you do not self install the JR kit with e85 will run $6000 - $7000 vs. the Phantom kit + OFT for $2200 - $2300. Indeed, the numbers are easy to skew.

Of course the power isn't the same, but neither are the goals. However for the majority of drivers who rarely see a track (but possibly do AutoX and or drag) the ESC makes a lot of sense. A final note to this is that development of the ESC kit is bringing it closer to the above goals each day for A LOT less money.

To answer the initial question of "why aren't manufacturers making ESC kits?", it's because nobody would buy them. If I'm already willing to spend $3000, why not spend an extra $2000 and get the extra benefits of a real supercharger? Companies will only sell parts that are in demand. I don't want a weak FI system that only activates at WOT. And the claim "+50whp with aftermarket headers" isn't a very good selling point. Rev Works tuned a 100% stock FRS to over 200whp, and people with headers alone already see upwards of 200whp. As a buyer in the FI marketplace, that leaves me wonder what benefit comes from the ESC itself.

I think the reason for the ESC's apparent success on this forum is because the owners of this car are strangely frugal. People shell out $25k-40k for a brand-spankin'-new car, then demand the cheapest parts for it.

I would argue that $1500-$2500 entry-level forced induction kits have more market potential than your serious $4000+ kits, especially for low-budget sports cars. The Phantom ESC has done an exceptional job exploiting this opportunity and bringing the demand to light.

Let's be real, while many people who buy sports cars such as the 86 twins may be car enthusiasts, the overwhelming majority of them never actually track their cars. While 300+ whp certainly sounds like it would be unbelievably fantastic, most street-goers cannot justify the $5000-$6000 price and instead settle with $1500-$2000 in bolt-ons that produce minimal gains. Remember, this is a budget car that is purchased by a lot of young people that are tight on money. That $2000-$4000 range is almost completely untapped.

The ESC satisfies this gap in the market, and I look forward to seeing how Phantom and other companies respond to this in the future.

I agree. I wouldn't spend 3 grand for 230 whp.

Just so that everyone is in touch with the real world, Valeo is developing an ESC for Volvo and Audi is testing an ESC on the R5. Don't know the specific outcomes of either project, but the ESC is in the mainstream.

http://autoweek.com/article/car-news...rger-explained

Not exactly what we're talking about here is it.

Not sure if this Road and Track magazine article as been linked before:

How electric superchargers went from fantasy to feasibility
It's finally time to plug in your snail.

@jdv14476 and @Shiv@Openflash

You guys do realize you are talking about electric supercharges that feed real turbochargers right?

Fairly relevant and it's more about what you want to do with your own car. If you want more power, then you're probably going to replace the internals and seriously build an engine. If you just want the ponies that everyone seems to think are missing, bolt-on mods can get you there. To chastise some development just because it doesn't fill your personal needs. End of line.