No front anti-sway bar=a better ride
 

I've gone to a lot of time and trouble to try to get a better ride on the street from my BRZ. I've tried Airlift coilovers, KW V3, Hypermax GT IV, Bilstein HD, used FR-S suspension and if it's too soft I get bounced around, and if it's too stiff I feel every wrinkle on the road. Then I read a thread by @captain_snooze where he had his anti-sway bars removed, and AST5200 coilovers installed. He liked the new ride so much I decided to try removing the front anti-sway bar from my BRZ. I also installed my Bilstein HD's with BRZ front springs, (27 N/mm), and FR-S rear springs, (37 N/mm). I'm not getting much leaning yet, because I still have on my stock rear anti-sway bar, but I'm going to remove that one as well, just to see how it rides. Best of all, this "fix" is completely free, unlike a lot of suggestions out there.

:burnrubber:

I do not recommend simply removing your front swaybar and then driving quickly.

- Andrew

Here we go again...

Sounds promising!

If the ride is really better than a possible solution is lighter swaybars. ;-)

Are you trolling?

If you are, begone.

If you aren't, why did you get a BRZ in the first place if a luxurious ride is so important to you that you're willing to go through this much effort?

I'm not going to comment on the swaybar but I will say this. Whatever you do to the car you will never be satisfied. If you get more power you will always want more. Do what you wish but I promise you that your hunger will consume you and your wallet along with it. It's a love hate relationship that in your heart you must find a compromise or the cycle will never end.

Hope you don't get into an accident and hurt someone else...

You'll probably be better off if you remove both bars.

This isn't like I removed the steering wheel, you know. The car has such a low center of gravity a sway bar isn't really necessary for street use. If you want to worry about me, worry because I have an OFT with the new "pedal dance mode". Now that's dangerous.

There is a hollow front sway bar available for these cars. I may just remove the rear sway bar and install the hollow front bar and call it good. It's obvious that the stock sway bars are too stiff for daily driving, but what I'm trying to find out is, if it's better with just the front bar, just the rear bar, or without both bars. After all, if Formula One cars can run without sway bars, why can't my BRZ?

I'll take some videos for all the doubting Thomas's out there. If I can still corner without sway bars, then who needs them?

Hey everyone, I removed my springs, shits cash. Glides over everything like a true land yacht. Lexus could learn a thing or two from how I mod cars.

Add a lift kit, some tall mud tires, and do some off-roading while you are at it.

You have made the error (again) of an either/or argument. I said in my damper review what my spring rates were and the anti sways I was using. Those sways are/were among the stiffest available for the BRZ/86/FRS. Therefore those sways made up a large percentage of total roll stiffness. Removing the stock bars from stockish springs is not the same scenario.

You do realise (oh wait, no you don't*) that increasing the percentage of rear roll stiffness (by decreasing the front ) will increase the tendency to oversteer.


*

Your OFT does what with who for how many jellybeans?

My Altima handled FABULOUSLY with no front sway bar. Stock, it handled exactly how you'd expect. Removed, it'd go through corners sideways and on its door handles. Throw in some bushings and coilovers, presto-chango, Formula D finalist.

No, it is not obvious. You are stating opinion as fact. It may be too stiff for your liking but that does not make it too stiff per se.

Just when I thought this forum was getting a little bland. This comes up :) thank you for making my night more enjoyable lol. I feel like I should quote you for my signature of extreme sarcasm...but then it'd probably go right over your head.

If my wheels stay on without lung nuts who needs em? If no one steals my car why do I need door locks? I still have rubber on my tires, why change them? They're basically slicks on the cheap right? What do you mean I need to change the oil? It came with new oil from the factory. Regular maintenance? I thought this car was self-sustaining?

I don't generally post on forums but I do lurk and search for useful information. However, I have to go ahead and second the Captain.

I have a project car.. and use my fr-s as my daily. I must say, that I find it very difficult to pass up the amazing OEM ride to drive others on a frequent basis. I am so perfectly happy with the FR-S stock suspension driving to work, store, out.. whatever, that I'm now reconsidering my suspension setups of other vehicles and haven't the heart to screw with the FR-S yet.

Also, lol @ so much effort to soften an 86. Give me your time and money, I'll spend it better.

I think Kool is a prime example of the "knows enough to be dangerous" phrase.

Tell you what, the car is SUPER planted without a front bar. Problem is, it lifts the rear wheel about 8" off the ground on sweepers so the ABS gets very very very confused.

:popcorn:

Ah, yes, another thread where someone thinks they know more than the designers and engineers who spent years designing the body and suspension of this car.

Thanks for living on the west coast, about as far as you can get away from me. Good luck to the rest of you in the area. :lol:

people act like removing the FSB is dangerous. I recommend never getting on vwvortex, you'll cry at the 95% of bagged/very low vw's not running one.

btw OP said he daily's not tracks so someone please explain to me how dangerous it is to drive without one on normal roads and obeying speed limits

No need to forum-pounce the guy... it's an interesting experiment (as long as he's safe about it). The result is probably soft and comfortable for 80% of normal driving situations. When things get serious, it flops onto the bump stops... more inside wheel extension, body roll, and chassis flex (due to more uneven lateral weight distribution in cornering)... then the rear end breaks loose.

The increased body roll and chassis flex tend to put the suspension geometry into sub-optimal situations (off-camber/toe can mean instability). If you're going to run without sway bars, just understand the inefficiencies at the extremes and try to prevent them.

Generally, it means cranking up the spring rates (or bump stop size/stiffness). Captain Snooze is running dramatically stiffer rates, which means his car doesn't get into wonky geometry situations. The percent of stiffness that comes from ARBs much less.

Minimizing the percent of stiffness from sway bars is generally a good thing, but even most formula cars recognize the utility. Most use tiny ones. Some teams even put a "third spring" on it to put that wheel coupling to work. This increases control during pitch and heave motions, which can be significant for lightweight, aero-heavy cars.
http://www.gurneyflap.com/Resources/renaultsus.jpg

my (now my brothers) Volkswagen Golf has been FSB free since 2008 for some odd ~150,000km.


there are no dangers to this.

That is a completely different car. FWD with a natural tendency to understeer.
It's like kool comparing a street driven BRZ to an f1 car.

How so.


in fact, the negative sideffects (more roll) are amplified in a VW. The FRS/BRZ is much better composed OEM.


removal of the FSB will improve independence and 1-wheel bump composure at the cost of increased roll due to lateral load.


Along with an altered weight transfer balance, but that whether that's negative or positive is unknown because if you're supplementing with after market spring rates then it's up to the user.

On FWD cars, removing the front swaybar is mostly done for auto-x and is either a big compromise or done in conjunction with a completely redone system (different spring rates, shocks, etc). The goal is to be be able to put power down and have grip exiting a corner. It's especially useful in FWD cars that do not have an LSD...you can actually punch the gas in a corner and it (kinda sorta) hooks and pulls you through. Plus you can get some major lift throttle oversteer. These things are better in an auto-x situation than the usual understeer that a FWD car will have. It unfortunately means you usually have a pretty sloppy car the rest of the time and the car can be a handful for some. But that's the compromise made for FWD cars that gives them faster auto-x times.

A BRZ/FRS without a front swaybar will behave differently than a FWD Golf without a front swaybar. They're pretty different and I don't really know where to begin. Note that most BRZ/FRS autocrossers are adding larger front swaybars to their cars.

If you really want to do it, remove both the front and the rear. That will improve ride a little bit without a massive shift towards oversteer. They are there for a reason though...to get the same overall roll resistance without them would require much stiffer springs than stock which would require much better dampers than stock.

As in Captain Snooze's case, you have a car that ditches both swaybars but has a corresponding increase in spring rates both front and rear. That's fine, but requires pretty sweet dampers to control the high spring rates (which he has).


Don't tune your BRZ/FRS like you tune a FWD car.

Don't drive it like a FWD car.

Don't compare it to an F1 car.

I heard someone say that unless your yearly suspension budget matches the yearly race weekend lunch budget of an F1 team, then don't try to compare your suspension or your suspension tuning skills to theirs. I thought that was funny.

- Andrew

yes..


but the car won't fall apart, doing this is not catastrophically dangerous


whether it's effective or not is a different issue, and I say let him experiment.

F1 cars don't have fenders, therefore, my FRS doesn't need fenders.

Pretty sure @Racecomp Engineering knows a thing or two about what they're talking about-however, its completely plausible their username is only there to deceive.

No one is saying the car is going to fall apart...

10char....

Here here! I LOVE the stock suspension on my BRZ. It's tactile (probably to help make up for the fact that the power-assist steering eliminates the wheel as a source of road-feel), yet not too harsh either. I MIGHT get new springs or dampers sometime as well as cascams as the new grippier tires (PSS's as opposed to the stock Primacies) are still gripping when the stocks would be slipping and I'm feeling more body roll now. But nowhere near bad enough that changes are necessary.

Stock suspension on this car is simply lovely, and one of the reasons I love this car: handling from the factory is damn near perfect!

My point still stands.

This discussion is about how the car is going to react while driving, not a mechanical safety issue.

I think it's a valid experiment.

Will his handling be affected? Yes.
Will his ride quality increase? Possibly
Will he instantly lose control? Doubtful

Save the flaming for the guys running max camber on stretched tires. THAT is actually dangerous.

Ps. Where do you get the softer swaybars? I might be the Guinnea pig

You are still searching for a better ride? Just get some tiny wheels and big side wall tires. Or just buy a g35/g37

Right on. The car will not fall apart.

My concern is excessive oversteer that is difficult to correct and could catch a lot of people by surprise. Lift-throttle oversteer for sure, but possibly a lot on corner exit too. Might not be a concern for going slowly around town, but as I said in my first post:

"I do not recommend simply removing your front swaybar and then driving quickly."

- Andrew

If you want a better ride on a budget, here's what I recommend:

Stock springs
Koni Yellows on full soft OR Bilstein HDs

Done.

- Andrew

i think everyone forgot, OP said he daily's his car, NOT TRACK HIS CAR. why does everyone on this forum thinks everyone should be concerned about building the best track car possible.

No, we were talking about most people who lower their FWD cars to the point where a FSB will keep them to high, or they cant bolt their end links to their air ride struts. i bet less than 10% of people on vortex are auto-x'ing their cars.

and what do you consider max camber on stretched tires. why is THAT, THAT dangerous. is a 215/40 on a 8" dangerous to you how about a 8.5", 9", 9.5", 10", 10.5", 11".
When do YOU think its dangerous and what proof do you have. and how about camber when is it dangerous and why? is it because you get a smaller contact patch even though you could be running a 235/35 on a 18x11 with up to -6 and still have more contact patch than stock wheels


so sick of ignorant "track guys" on this forum

That's why my first post in here said he'd be better off removing both bars.


What he really needs to do is sell the car and buy something different or get a different DD if he wants a sweet smooth ride.

All the more reason it is important to ensure reasonably neutral handling at the limit. Because you might be put at the limit *without warning*, whereas at the track you will be approaching the limit on purpose and in a controlled environment.

An FR-S/BRZ without a front bar is going to be more prone to oversteer at the limit, which will increase the likelihood of losing control in an emergency maneuver situation. Hardly worth it for a small perceived improvement in ride quality IMO...

I'm not talking about this from a track perspective at all. I'm talking about when you're on an off-ramp and come across someone going 25 mph under the speed limit...or a deer...or a giant ass pothole...your neighbor's cat...or some road debris. Hit the brakes and say hello to the guardrail (if you're lucky). I do NOT want someone to read the first post and remove their front swaybar thinking there are no consequences.

I really don't care much about vwvortex or ft86club people slamming their cars on air-ride. That's not my scene. I have my opinion about it but whatever...different strokes.

- Andrew