Synchros problem?
 

I have about 1,100 miles on my MT FR-S. I've noticed that the first and second gear synchros are a bit "crunchy". It is hard to shift into those gears smoothly, there is a little bit of push back and a feeling and sound of pushing metal pieces. It's not grinding at all, and the clutch is fully depressed. What it seems like is synchros that are not as smoothly meshed as they could be. Anyone else having this issue?

Just to make the suggestion, get it taken care of under warranty immediately. While I don't have my FR-S yet, I can tell you that a "crunchy" sound like you are describing is indeed something wrong with the synchros

Are you shifting it into first before the car is completely stopped? What is your past experience with manuel transmissions?

mine has only about 60 miles on it. I have noticed that 1st gear has some resistance when down shifting before completely stopped, but I wouldn't consider it a crunch at all.

Are your issues on upshifts or downshifts?

I have about 800 miles and experience similar, I'm willing to bet this is normal and just a part of its normal operation, much like the chatter some are experiencing down low in the rpm.

Don't, Do not, shift into first before the vehicle is completely stopped.

I hope this car doesnt start coming off as a shit bucket because of mistreatment, whether unknowingly or not.

One is an engine noise because of the DI system, the other is transmission. I have had synchros go on me before, and it sounds very similar to what happened to me--crunchy noises mean that the synchros are wearing abnormally.

Matt, listen to this guy, he is correct:

Agreed, chulooz

Just a couple of notes, I have been using manual shift cars for thirty years and never had a transmission that required service, or had to replace a clutch (even after 155,000 original miles). So, my shift style is not to blame. The problem is inconsistent, but appears to be getting worse, so I will be bringing it to the attention of the dealer. The issue appears when getting into first for the initial start up and then into second gear. Example: heavy traffic, I slow down a bit while in second, then switch into neutral, I put the car back into second, at about 22 mph, but it takes a fair amount of push and noise to get it back into gear. The overall feeling of getting into gear at this point is not smooth at all. The feeling is similar to well-worn synchros on an old transmission. What I wanted to know is if other people are experiencing this.

Good idea... I would let dealer take care of it.

On the side note, when are you trying to shift into 2nd or 1st that makes those problems?

Thanks for the heads up.

I've only done it when slow rolling before a stoplight. But I will admit on a tight road course or auto cross in the future I probably would have shifted into first with a heel / toe throttle blip. (i think - I honestly haven't paid too much attention to 1st gear gearing) What is special about this transmission that prevents you from doing this?

Gear ratio is major one I think. FRS/BRZ gears are really short, so gotta watch out ;)

From another post, I was informed that the first two gears used a triple cone design for the synchros. This makes them feel a little notchy at times, namely when going into first at a stop, but that does not indicate a problem with them. Now if you hear the heart-wrenching gear grind noise when shifting, that's a different matter.

And yes, never use first gear unless you are stopped completely. Since the gears are somewhat close, you can easily ride second gear from 5mph. If you are below that, you can stop completely and then do a first gear shift. I've found second gear to go really, really low which I like because I'm used to that on the Si.

For sport driving, it's up to you but I'd keep the abuse while DDing to as minimal as possible!

I have experience with some other cars for the past 10 years that it can be hard to shift into 1st gear. But not for the 10 GTI. You can try heel and toe or just bring the rev up when you down shift to low gears. Can be helpful.

ok. you guys are talking about sticking into 1st without a rev match.

1st gear should only be used to get the car moving. Once you're rolling, 2nd gear should be adequate. This goes for all cars, not just the FR-S.

i guess we are arguing a minor point here if 1st gear is really short on the FR-S, but I don't feel like you guys are speaking from the perspective on an engineer. There are several cars I have driven that with a final drive change, have had very use-able 1st gears on track. And on tight turns, you blip the throttle, put it in first, and drive off the corner. If there is a technical reason not to do that with this transmission, I'd believe it. but I haven't heard one yet. What I've heard is "its really short - you can use 2nd gear"

Not trying to argue for arguing sake. Just looking for an engineering reason for your position.

This is only good advise for the street.

Shifting into first for Auto cross or racing is common.

If your car can't handle it, the tranny needs to be fixed

I think that there are two different schools of thought here--DDing vs. Autocross/racing. For DDing, no, I wouldn't downshift into first unless at a complete stop. For racing, however, I can see how that might be necessary, as has been said, with a quick throttle blip.

In short: DD, no. Racing, maybe.

I don't understand why you guys think it is OK to be unable to shift into 1st from 2nd. cars I had always let me shift into 1st while it is still moving, I just don't let the clutch out like it is a downshift because it is jarring, but the point is.. When you drive a low power engine like AE86 you do not lug around 1500 RPM in 2nd gear, you just bog the engine down big time.

Nothing - I do it all the time with no issues. You just need to rev match properly.

I have no issues downshifting from 2-1 at appropriate speeds and revs.

I'm not a pro race driver by any means, but I do have about 22 years driving manuals.

When I was driving in a bit of traffic a couple days ago my tranny was making a clunking noise into first and a "crunchy" sound in 2nd and 3rd. I was trying to be as smooth as possible for my passenger while keeping below 3000 rpm.

Today I didnt feel or hear anything as I reved a little higher. I did some heal-toeing a few times to over 5000rpm and it felt great... A little better feel than my previous RSX and much better than my E30 M3. One of the main reasons I bought this car was because of the advertised triplecone syncros in the tranny.

If you have resistance shifting to 1st before completely stopped that's normal with any car .

The gearing! Other transmissions does the same

1-2-3 should feel a bit 'rough/crunchy' due to those wonderful triple-cone gear synchros. These were chosen to maximize durability on a high-revving, beginners RWD car. You can mercilessly beat the piss out of the first 3 gear changes, and the transmission probably wont mind a bit.

I believe the RX-8 transmission also employs the use of triple-cone synchros for durability, and that transmission feels very similar to ours (thats because it is).

Unfortunately yes, this has the very minute drawback of making the car a bit louder and rougher. Its an inexpensive sports car, guys - compromises were made in certain areas.

I find accelerating from 2nd while rolling(walking speed) to not be a good thing. Engine makes a funny sound compared to other cars Ive owned. I refuse to ride the clutch rolling in second so Im gonna have to be doing a lot of rev-matching into 1st!

This makes complete sense. Crunchy = bad in my previous cars, so I was going from previous experience.

The only way to smoothly get into 1st from 2nd is to rev match into 1st. That's what I find. Either throttle blip or double clutch.

Try out Amsoil Synchromesh. I know some S2k guys use it in their transmissions to fix synchro problems.

I am over 1100 miles and I've had concern with my 1->2 gearchange for a while now. Especially for the very first 1->2 shift in the morning there is A LOT of resistence felt in the shifter and if forced through it will occasionally grind. Once the car is warmed up, even just a couple miles, it is much better. I don't have any problems with any other gears. I will be talking to the dealer about it soon.

Try this:
-From standing idle rpm double-clutch in neutral then shift into first (Useful when fluid is colder than normal operating temperature.).
-Accelerate in first, noting the indicated matching speeds and rpms at three points within the operational range. Practice your downshifts at preselected speeds and blip accelerator pedal to match the rpm previously noted. In practice, you will likely be shifting down at the higher rpm.

Note I am not having a problem shifting 2->1. With appropriate rev matching and especially with a quick double clutch to raise the input shaft speed, 2nd to 1st downshifts are not a problem. My issue is shifting 1st to 2nd, especially when cold. I probably should have put in my first post that I've been driving MT cars for 20+ years. Also, have never had a clutch or transmission issue in that time.

Think I quoted the wrong post in error, excuse my dyslexic response please!

I've had this happen with almost every modern manual I've owed since 2000. My Subaru's demonstrated this the worst. From my experience, this is due to the fluid used. Most factory Subaru fluid is pretty thin, to allow for quick warm up and better shifting in colder climates. The drawback is that, when the transmission is completely cold, and due to the close gear ratios used between 1st and 2nd, you'll get clunky shifts with the occasional grind.

If this is a major issue for you, and you don't live in a climate that gets very cold, like the Northeast, you can step up your transmission fluid to something thicker. The downside to this is, if the temperature does drop to say 30F, it will be harder to shift into 1st and 2nd, but you won't grind at all. I've used Motul in the past with great results. I've had mixed results with Redline.

Brought my car to the dealership and took a ride with an experienced mechanic. He liked the car a lot. What he told me was that transmissions in a RWD car had less room and therefore used smaller synchronizers than FWD cars. Since I have driven FWD cars for the last 17 years and Hondas at that, I have been comparing two different transmission styles. I don't know enough about transmissions to verify what he said, but in any case, I now have the concern registered with the dealership. If the crunchiness issue doesn't get worse, that's fine. It's something I can live with.

Smart move, keep a paper trail. Keep us updated with any new developments!

Indeed, I always reported any issues I had with the car when I took my Si in for service. If you have a record of issues before the warranty is up, there is a good chance they will do the repair on "good faith" once you are just barely out of warranty.

Yes.
When I first get in the car in the AM 2nd gear requires a little muscle to get into and sometimes I can feel a couple cogs slipping by as it does go into gear.
I was just thinking it was because it's a new transmission and everything is a little tight.

What he said!

I've never driven a car that will easily shift to first once the car is moving.

After 3,000 miles, the "crunchiness" of the 2nd gear is much reduced. Shifting is much smoother, except when the engine/transmission are cold.

Well if you apply any throttle in 2nd gear and aren't around 10-12 MPH it lugs bad in this car, so I find myself in 1st usually to 12-15 mph under normal acceleration