Brake firmness/pedal feel
 

Okay so you may have seen me complain about our stock brakes in other threads. I don't really like the stock pedal feel. I have always thought it was way too squishy, then I read a forum member compare his brakes to his stock 993, and I though there must be something wrong with my car. I've been racing Rx-7s for over 15 years and the 4 pot FC brakes are bulletproof and work damn well, especially on a 2100 lb first gen.

Well, I took the car out for a flogging this weekend, and I noticed something odd. When I first hit the brakes they are mushy, and the pedal travels way too far. If I quickly release them and press again they are nice and tight with great feedback and a good pedal feel. They feel much more like they way they should.

I did some digging and the only thing I could find on the web was that I may have a bad master cylinder. I've never experienced this before in all my years of driving & racing.

My question is, is your car the same way, are these just modern brakes and I need to get used to it, or should I take it into the dealer before I start upgrading the brakes?

Did you change brake fluid and pads? If not, you may want to start there first...

The brakes are all stock. It's been like this since day one. I don't want to start modding if there's something wrong with them out of the gate.

Racing pads are racing fluid are different from street pads and street fluid. 2100lbs and 2800 lbs is totally different. Try putting 700lbs in your fa and see how it feels. Stock pads are junk for anything performance related. They are made to last long and be quiet.

For Gods sake I'm not talking about racing pads. I didn't even mention racing pads. I've been racing cars since 1998. This isn't my first rodeo, but this is the first time I've ever felt this in a stock car.
I was comparing stock 20 year old brakes on a 2800 lb FC, which have had much better feel than MY car. In fact I ran stock 1 piston calipers front & back with Hawk HPS pads and off the shelf -god knows's what- fluid in my FB that finished 2nd in MOD in 2009. Those felt comparable if not better than my BRZ.

I'm asking if anyone else's pedal feel gets light years better with a second pump of the pedal.

The closest I can explain it, it's similar to a car with a big brake swap and too small of a master cylinder. The first pump is soft and there is no feedback nor response, but if you pump the brakes on the second press they feel amazing.

Edit: One thing I will say, I have experienced the "fade" that the stock pads get, but once I installed my GT3 brake cooling ducts that mostly resolved itself, so It's not that the pads are surface cooking.

Nope. Mine feel perfectly fine. My stock pads however have no bite or power.

My brakes have started to feel this way lately. I plan to re-bleed the brakes this spring and hopefully resolve the issue. I haven't driven hard on the track with the current feel and stock pads, so my comments only relate to street driving.

A master cylinder brace really firms up the pedal on this car.

I have a master brake cylinder brace as well (Grimmspeed) - takes the mushiness from firewall flex right out of the equation.

Your issue sounds more like water/air in your fluid. Perhaps try changing out your brake fluid before doing anything else?

Try bleeding them and/or adjusting the pedal. Take it to the dealer if you think there is a problem, maybe there is.

I upgraded the master cylinder on my old Impreza and it made the brakes fantastic in terms of response/ feel.

Sadly I don't believe there is an upgrade availible like that for these cars yet...

I think I'm going to buy some Torque and bring it to the dealer and have them bleed the lines. It doesn't feel like air, but it could be water. I didn't think about that.

OP - my experience is similar.


I attended a two day track event recently. I had the brake system bled with high quality fluids and new high performance znoelli pads installed the day before the event. There are DBA club spec T3 rotors on the car too.


After the first session the pedal felt like mush. On track the pedal would 'come back' and the feel would firm up but overall they feel pretty bad.


I haven't driven the car since but on the way home the pedal felt vague for initial 20% of travel.


Is this a fluid issue, a brake line issue or something else? Feed back appreciated. Or am I just experiencing normal conditions after heavy use on stock callipers?


Every track day I do I just think I need to buy a BBK and be done with it.

Was it really hot or did the track have lots of straights followed by braking zones/hard turns? You might have experienced expansion of the stock rubber brake hoses due to the heat in your brake system. Might want to try braided steel lines - you've improved almost everything else about your brakes, shouldn't leave out the communication lines between the driver and the brakes. :burnrubber:

Exactly that. The first 25% of travel is nothing, then it slowly starts to sink in and grab, but if you pump it, then it brakes great. Only then do I get why people love the brakes. A friend in the 90's put Integra brakes on his Civic and it was the same way. His MC was too small, but once he replaced the MC and proportioning valve, it fixed everything. The same with 240 guys running z32 brakes, mush, then firm. Same goes for the FC brakes on a FB. Maybe I got a bad master cylinder or proportioning valve. It feels like the ABS is bleeding off pressure, but there's no correction vibration.
I'd get it if I had modded the brakes, but I'm at a loss. I'm thinking something is wrong with my car, but I'd love to hear other opinions.

Typically if the MC is bad it'll feel firm when you stomp on the brakes, but if you hold the pedal the pressure will bleed off. Next time you stomp on them they'll be firm again, but will always bleed off if you hold pressure on the pedal.

If it feels squishy, that's usually air. You won't feel water when the brakes are cold, both brake fluid and water are equally uncompressable. You'll feel water when it boils off and introduces gases into the system, making the brakes squishy at best or totally gone at worst.

I'd flush the fluid and make sure they're bled right, my money says that'll fix what you're feeling.

All that said, stock pads are MUCH more compressable than a good aftermarket pad. The difference in how firm my pedal is between stock pads and what I'm running in the summer (Ferodo DS2500) is definitely very noticeable. I wouldn't call mine squishy on stock pads (especially compared to my wifes camry), but it's definitely much firmer with the Ferodo pads.