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Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community - FT86CLUB (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/index.php)
-   Engine, Exhaust, Transmission (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=8)
-   -   Header without a tune (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79303)

eddiev116 12-16-2014 01:33 PM
Header without a tune
 
Hi guys. I'm looking to add a bit of gains on my vehicle. I am trying to keep the car as stock as possible. I am looking to get UL header not sure what brand yet but want this upgrade in the future. I called a couple of shops and they want me to do a tune with the header upgrade. My question to you knowledgeable twin owners is can I just put an aftermarket header and choose not to tune it but will there be any HP gains without the tune? My only reason to not tune the car is I do not want to ruin my warranty and or my cars computer system.
Thanks in advance for the suggestions and advice.

Koa 12-16-2014 01:37 PM
The gains will be significantly limited. Remember it's not all about HP. A tune, especially with a header, will smooth out and increase all operating functions of the vehicle substantially.

For instance, with just my Stage 1 OFT tune, I am seeing smoother and more responsive throttle action, a 2-3 mpg increase, butt-dyno confirmed HP and torque gains, as well as a smoother powerband as confirmed by the aforementioned butt dyno. Others will confirm the positive things by getting rid of that ugly factory tune.

I know ya want to keep your vehicle stockish, or relatively able to put back to stock... having an RS-1.0 would exacerbate this need as you probably don't want to put that warranty in jeopardy.

Malt 12-16-2014 02:01 PM
You'd be better off just getting a tune instead of a header without a tune. Much simpler install, cheaper, easier to return to stock, and the ability to get almost all your money back when you decide to resell (if you go with OFT).

A header without a tune will also result in a CEL.

phrosty 12-16-2014 02:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malt (Post 2058059)
A header without a tune will also result in a CEL.
Not all headers cause a CEL. I think there are even some catless ones that don't CEL.

Koa 12-16-2014 02:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malt (Post 2058059)
You'd be better off just getting a tune instead of a header without a tune. Much simpler install, cheaper, easier to return to stock, and the ability to get almost all your money back when you decide to resell (if you go with OFT).

A header without a tune will also result in a CEL.
Both of those statements are subjective- it may be easier to 'return to stock', but the ECU contains a flash history that current tuning solutions have yet to circumvent/erase. Meaning that Toyota/SOA can scan to see whether or not the car has been flashed before. EDIT - Appears this is not confirmed! Can anyone confirm?

There are plenty of headers out there, even catless ones (such as OFH) that people have installed and driven without a tune with no CEL

just some food for thought, I am inclined to agree with you though about just getting a tune and foregoing the header. Chances that Toy/SOA would give you much grief over the ECU flash would be lower if it's just a Stage 1 tune- one could argue they flashed it only for a brief time and returned to stock. Any ECU problems, though, and one could bet they'd get flak at best and a denied warranty claim at worst.

Malt 12-16-2014 02:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koa (Post 2058070)
Both of those statements are subjective- it may be easier to 'return to stock', but the ECU contains a flash history that current tuning solutions have yet to circumvent/erase. Meaning that Toyota/SOA can scan to see whether or not the car has been flashed before.
I keep seeing this thrown around without any substantial evidence. What is fairly clear is that a dealer can not see how many times an ECU has been reflashed. As for the flash solutions circumventing the alleged flash counter, OFT copies your stock tune and reflashing it puts it back exactly how it was before the tune. Sending an ECU off for testing, which is HIGHLY unlikely for simply service/warranty claims, may result in the manufacturer discovering your reflash. If you have ANY evidence that is contrary to this I'd love to see it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koa (Post 2058070)
There are plenty of headers out there, even catless ones (such as OFH) that people have installed and driven without a tune with no CEL
I can tell you from experience that the OFT will cause a CEL without a tune. It might take 50 miles, it might take 500 miles, but it will show up eventually. As for installing catted headers, why bother? It doesn't remedy the legal issues of running an aftermarket header when it comes to emissions testing (you can not legally replace a functioning cat) and they don't perform as well as catless headers. If you are going to go through the trouble and issues with installing a header, you might as well choose the most optimum solution, which is a catless header.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koa (Post 2058070)
just some food for thought, I am inclined to agree with you though about just getting a tune and foregoing the header. Chances that Toy/SOA would give you much grief over the ECU flash would be lower if it's just a Stage 1 tune- one could argue they flashed it only for a brief time and returned to stock. Any ECU problems, though, and one could bet they'd get flak at best and a denied warranty claim at worst.
I have yet to hear about a warranty claim being denied due to a flashed ECU. Simply put, if someone is just looking for a few HP without fear of denied warranty claims and is easy to remove, a reflash is hands down the best solution. Not that I'm advocating returning an ECU to stock for service or warranty claims. ;)

yomny 12-16-2014 02:35 PM
Ptuning to mention one, i could confirm that you will not get a CEL and i did run it for weeks without a tune.. There's a noticeabe powerbump but with a tune is much better. Plus a header with a stock exhaust sounds weird, specially if its catless.

rjgough95 12-16-2014 02:59 PM
yeah right now I can say that borla uel catless will cause the CEL to come on. I have the spacer for the sensor just haven't gotten around to putting that on and trying that. At the moment im thinking about the OFT just still worried about all the what ifs that can happen and cause my engine to have problems.

Koa 12-16-2014 05:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malt (Post 2058085)
I keep seeing this thrown around without any substantial evidence. What is fairly clear is that a dealer can not see how many times an ECU has been reflashed. As for the flash solutions circumventing the alleged flash counter, OFT copies your stock tune and reflashing it puts it back exactly how it was before the tune. Sending an ECU off for testing, which is HIGHLY unlikely for simply service/warranty claims, may result in the manufacturer discovering your reflash. If you have ANY evidence that is contrary to this I'd love to see it.



I can tell you from experience that the OFT will cause a CEL without a tune. It might take 50 miles, it might take 500 miles, but it will show up eventually. As for installing catted headers, why bother? It doesn't remedy the legal issues of running an aftermarket header when it comes to emissions testing (you can not legally replace a functioning cat) and they don't perform as well as catless headers. If you are going to go through the trouble and issues with installing a header, you might as well choose the most optimum solution, which is a catless header.



I have yet to hear about a warranty claim being denied due to a flashed ECU. Simply put, if someone is just looking for a few HP without fear of denied warranty claims and is easy to remove, a reflash is hands down the best solution. Not that I'm advocating returning an ECU to stock for service or warranty claims. ;)
@Shiv@Openflash or anyone else, does the ECU in fact keep some sort of log/counter for ECU flashes, or any counter that is indicative that the unit was tampered with?

And Malt, YMMV - it's just not set in stone that you'll get a CEL from running a header, that's all I'm saying. People have ran theirs for months, various brands, without triggering CELs. I've followed a fair amount of threads and talked to a few local chapter peeps who can confirm. Others can also confirm the CEL will throw. It's all subjective is what I'm trying to underline

yomny 12-16-2014 05:21 PM
I could say one thing, ecutek displays a flash count so i think the ecu does keep track, i'm around 20 lol

BlueDubbinTDI 12-16-2014 05:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by yomny (Post 2058107)
Ptuning to mention one, i could confirm that you will not get a CEL and i did run it for weeks without a tune.. There's a noticeabe powerbump but with a tune is much better. Plus a header with a stock exhaust sounds weird, specially if its catless.
Video of this? Preferably a drive by.

Malt 12-16-2014 05:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by yomny (Post 2058372)
I could say one thing, ecutek displays a flash count so i think the ecu does keep track, i'm around 20 lol
Thats an Ecutek "feature" which is part of the custom programming with their reflash. Ecutek also adds data to the ECU for verifying license information when you are trying to use one of their ROMS. Not all flashing options do this and its because of that why you can never truly return to "stock" when using ecutek as a tuning solution, unlike OFT.

Not that its bad as ecutek has many features that many people find useful so its a tradeoff one has to decide on.

EDIT: OP, just trying to steer you in the right direction. Many people have purchased upgrades for their cars and ended up spending more money for less upgrade than they were hoping for. Honestly the best bang for your buck upgrade you can buy is the open flash header and open flash tablet. For ~$1000 you'll see a significant upgrade in your cars performance and I doubt any other upgrade (minus tires) will net you the same return for dollar spent. If you have access to E85, even better.

steve99 12-16-2014 05:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koa (Post 2058070)
Both of those statements are subjective- it may be easier to 'return to stock', but the ECU contains a flash history that current tuning solutions have yet to circumvent/erase. Meaning that Toyota/SOA can scan to see whether or not the car has been flashed before.

There are plenty of headers out there, even catless ones (such as OFH) that people have installed and driven without a tune with no CEL

just some food for thought, I am inclined to agree with you though about just getting a tune and foregoing the header. Chances that Toy/SOA would give you much grief over the ECU flash would be lower if it's just a Stage 1 tune- one could argue they flashed it only for a brief time and returned to stock. Any ECU problems, though, and one could bet they'd get flak at best and a denied warranty claim at worst.
Where and how does the ecu store flash history ?? can you supply source of this info?

dealers use techstream can you point out in techstream where the dealer can see flash history info ?? if not how does the dealer detect this flash history ??

it is possible that this count is stored somwhere , but its does not appear to be accessible via dealer techstream software.

yomny 12-16-2014 05:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueDubbinTDI (Post 2058377)
Video of this? Preferably a drive by.
Of the stock exhaust with header? youtube "yomny" and you'll see my white frs titled ptuning header /cold start.. its raspy as hell lol. I'll load here once i get home, can't do it from work. Also linked here


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