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-   -   Unequal vs. Equal length headers? (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=77980)

FR-S_ATL 11-21-2014 01:47 AM
Unequal vs. Equal length headers?
 
I'm sure there have been a ton of posts on this and if there is one helpful one, link me to it, but I'm looking for a good set of headers. I have a borla exhaust and want a little more power and a better sound. Should I go with equal or unequal length and what is the best set to buy?

FRSBRZGT86FAN 11-21-2014 01:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FR-S_ATL (Post 2030225)
I'm sure there have been a ton of posts on this and if there is one helpful one, link me to it, but I'm looking for a good set of headers. I have a borla exhaust and want a little more power and a better sound. Should I go with equal or unequal length and what is the best set to buy?
UEL for the characteristic deep boxer rumble

EL for the smoother sounding rumble

torqdork 11-21-2014 02:06 AM
What do we have stock? I like the sound of whichever it is with the Perrin unres catback. Is there some benefit to changing the remaining pipe between the header and catback and if so, which is compatible with either EL or UEL header?

Wise 11-21-2014 02:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by torqdork (Post 2030237)
What do we have stock? I like the sound of whichever it is with the Perrin unres catback. Is there some benefit to changing the remaining pipe between the header and catback and if so, which is compatible with either EL or UEL header?
Stock Header is EL.

There's two pipes between the header and catback. The Front Pipe and the Over Pipe.

There are benefits to changing these as the stock front pipe contains a catalytic converter. Changing this to a hi flow cat or removing it completely can produce decent gains.

torqdork 11-21-2014 02:24 AM
Why would someone prefer one over the other, merely sound or actual HP gains?

Andrew025 11-21-2014 02:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by torqdork (Post 2030252)
Why would someone prefer one over the other, merely sound or actual HP gains?
You could say both.

People have been saying EL outperforms UEL but after looking at many dyno graphs, it looks like it mainly comes down to the header AND tuning. There are UELs that show a % gain from stock similar to most EL.
It looks like the top dollar (~$1k+) ELs provide the most gains though.

So... mainly sound I suppose.

Cop 11-21-2014 02:49 AM
Seriously...use Google:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=601219

torqdork 11-21-2014 03:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cop (Post 2030263)
My car is N/A but that forum was interesting anyway.

Digitalanalog 11-21-2014 03:10 AM
stock isnt el but it isnt uel either...

Andrew025 11-21-2014 03:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digitalanalog (Post 2030273)
stock isnt el but it isnt uel either...
I know what you mean, but that technically isn't possible.

Alltezza 11-21-2014 03:45 AM
I am so glad that you made this post because I was actually going to make it lol.


And to answer the OP's post I would say get JDLs. I was looking into getting EL headers as well but the UEL was looking appealing mainly because of the price, it's a little cheaper at least on the JDL website

http://jdlautodesign.net/shop/ft86-equal-length-header/

You have the option to get a catless or get a high flow cat. I don't know if you have to pass emissions in ATL or not.
I don't have JDL Headers but I've read a lot of great reviews about the JDL headers also you should look into nameless headers too. But for me I'd probably lean more towards JDL.

I guess since we're on this subject anybody wanna tell us about Nameless and JDL headers

lantsalot 11-21-2014 12:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digitalanalog (Post 2030273)
stock isnt el but it isnt uel either...
I was under the impression that it is ever so slightly UEL. Which makes sense judging by the sound, where you get a bit of a rumble in the very low rpms. But to be honest i haven't taken a close look yet--planning to go UEL in future though.

Shark_Bait88 11-21-2014 01:17 PM
To make this really simple, the only reason to get an UEL header is if you want the signature Subaru boxer rumble. Otherwise, EL is a mechanically more efficient design and will give you a sound that is more akin to Porsche boxer motors.

Personally, I am a fan of EL. I don't care enough about that Subaru boxer rumble to want a less efficient part on my car.

The difference in efficiency really isn't all that much though, and that's why some people can justify opting for the UEL header because of the sound it makes.

Foobar 11-21-2014 01:30 PM
I went with OpenFlash Header. I wanted the Subaru Burble, it was inexpensive, and Vishnu bundled it with the OFT along with a tune specific for this configuration mated to the Vortech with proven gains. My car along with the Perrin headerback system drives and sounds exactly as I personally felt it should have from the dealer.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

ExxelDistributions 11-21-2014 02:36 PM
I'm actually thinking of getting headers and can't decide to go with EL or UEL

Shark_Bait88 11-21-2014 03:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by revolutioN21 (Post 2030696)
I'm actually thinking of getting headers and can't decide to go with EL or UEL
Is the boxer rumble worth it to you to have a less efficient design? That's pretty much the only thing you need to determine in this debate.

Edit: I'm not trying to bash UEL headers or the people who choose to buy them, simply stating what you need to determine in order to decide which you will buy.

MokSpeed 11-21-2014 03:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digitalanalog (Post 2030273)
stock isnt el but it isnt uel either...
Wouldn't that technically make it UEL? If it's not equal length it can only be unequal length lol. Though it's not as drastic of a difference compared to an aftermarket UEL header.

As far as the difference goes UEL provides a nice strong mid range powerband. EL has way more potential in terms of gains for high power goals. This is why you see most FI kits use EL headers as well. The UEL provides the nice boxer rumble engine note. The EL gives more of a true 4 cylinder tuner car sound.

Foobar 11-21-2014 03:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shark_Bait88 (Post 2030741)
Is the boxer rumble worth it to you to have a less efficient design? That's pretty much the only thing you need to determine in this debate.

Edit: I'm not trying to bash UEL headers or the people who choose to buy them, simply stating what you need to determine in order to decide which you will buy.
I think the efficiency in design argument is moot in our platform. I suppose it makes a bigger difference for turbo applications, so if a turbo is in the equation, the efficiency of UEL vs. EL comes more into play.

I know on the other turbo Subaru platforms, EL can offer actual gains beyond margin of error.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

Shark_Bait88 11-21-2014 04:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foobar (Post 2030803)
I think the efficiency in design argument is moot in our platform. I suppose it makes a bigger difference for turbo applications, so if a turbo is in the equation, the efficiency of UEL vs. EL comes more into play.

I know on the other turbo Subaru platforms, EL can offer actual gains beyond margin of error.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
Yeah, that's why I noted that it really isn't much of a difference. If you're going FI, I'd definitely opt for EL. Otherwise, it's more a preference on sound. I like the EL sound better personally.

ExxelDistributions 11-21-2014 05:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shark_Bait88 (Post 2030741)
Is the boxer rumble worth it to you to have a less efficient design? That's pretty much the only thing you need to determine in this debate.

Edit: I'm not trying to bash UEL headers or the people who choose to buy them, simply stating what you need to determine in order to decide which you will buy.
its not the rumble im really into. im looking for something more gains and not what sound it makes.

Shark_Bait88 11-21-2014 05:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by revolutioN21 (Post 2030923)
its not the rumble im really into. im looking for something more gains and not what sound it makes.
In that case I'd go EL. NA there won't be a significant difference, but if you ever go FI you will get better gains from EL.

rb6freak 11-21-2014 05:35 PM
While I prefer EL for the potential for maximum power, can't help but love the boxer rumble. Check out this fly-by sound by @mkivsoopra

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2kJCyXb5r0"]BRZ PTuning turbo flyby - YouTube[/ame]

:drool:

Poodles 11-22-2014 02:58 AM
Depends how the car is used.


EL is most peek HP, UEL will really help the torque dip.

cdrazic93 11-22-2014 05:04 AM
Typical "I know there's been a ton of posts about this that I acknowledge, yet post a question anyway" thread.

weederr33 11-23-2014 12:14 AM
When one says the EL are more efficient is that in the sense of mpgs or power production?

Andrew025 11-23-2014 12:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by weederr33 (Post 2032152)
When one says the EL are more efficient is that in the sense of mpgs or power production?
Usually power.

torqdork 11-23-2014 01:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cdrazic93 (Post 2031542)
Typical "I know there's been a ton of posts about this that I acknowledge, yet post a question anyway" thread.
Meet @Cop, you have something in common besides Junior.

Shiv@Openflash 11-23-2014 05:50 PM
FWIW, the UEL headers we tested made more power peak and more low end torque than the EL headers we tested. No only did it make power peak power, it also made more power in the 5500-6500rpm range which makes for a broader (less peaky) power curve. It surprised me too.

Nissota 11-24-2014 10:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiv@Openflash (Post 2032662)
FWIW, the UEL headers we tested made more power peak and more low end torque than the EL headers we tested. No only did it make power peak power, it also made more power in the 5500-6500rpm range which makes for a broader (less peaky) power curve. It surprised me too.
Shiv, Do you have a graph that back your findings on both EL and UEL?

tyler_win_photo 11-24-2014 11:28 PM
Go Tomei UEL and call it good. Cheap and good gains (more power throughout compared to Tomei's EL)

echo419 11-26-2014 03:02 PM
I just want something to drown out all the ticking and general bs sounds coming from the car at stock.

Foobar 11-26-2014 03:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by echo419 (Post 2035838)
I just want something to drown out all the ticking and general bs sounds coming from the car at stock.
3" exhaust + muffler delete will do that nicely.

Shiv@Openflash 11-26-2014 04:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissota (Post 2034053)
Shiv, Do you have a graph that back your findings on both EL and UEL?
Yes :)
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...58&postcount=1

Wayno 11-26-2014 10:34 PM
Don't forget long tube EL which fixes both torque dip and top end afaik

KoolBRZ 11-27-2014 02:29 AM
This is a UEL header.
 
1 Attachment(s)
I'm running the 2.062 UEL 91 Oct stage 2 tune on my AR header, and I like the way it runs with this tune, better than the EL tune. Looking closely at my header, a "TOP SPEED PRO-1 Performance Header Straight Flex Pipe", I've just noticed that the 2 front primaries are shorter than the rear primaries, so it is a UEL header! Attached is a pic of the header.
I will be Dyno testing 3-5 tunes on Dec 5th with my controversial Anti-Reversion header. I will be testing the unaltered version of the same header the following week and we'll see which headers and which tunes work the best.

Andrew025 11-27-2014 02:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KoolBRZ (Post 2036503)
I'm running the 2.062 UEL 91 Oct stage 2 tune on my AR header, and I like the way it runs with this tune, better than the EL tune. Looking closely at my header, a "TOP SPEED PRO-1 Performance Header Straight Flex Pipe", I've just noticed that the 2 front primaries are shorter than the rear primaries, so it is a UEL header! Attached is a pic of the header.
I will be Dyno testing 3-5 tunes on Dec 5th with my controversial Anti-Reversion header. I will be testing the unaltered version of the same header the following week and we'll see which headers and which tunes work the best.
Technically you can say it is UEL, but you're probably better off with an EL tune considering your header looks similar in design to the OEM manifold.
What data are you using to say it runs better (I know, you said "like") with the UEL vs the EL tune?
The OFT tune looks to be designed around headers that are much more unequal.

KoolBRZ 11-27-2014 02:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew025 (Post 2036510)
Technically you can say it is UEL, but you're probably better off with an EL tune considering your header looks similar in design to the OEM manifold.
What data are you using to say it runs better (I know, you said "like") with the UEL vs the EL tune?
The OFT tune looks to be designed around headers that are much more unequal.
When I say like, I mean like how it drives in traffic and cruising on the freeway. I've been looking for a way to increase low-end torque for automatics without changing the rear-end gears. The UEL tune doesn't accelerate as fast as the EL tune, so M/T guys would want the EL tune, while A/T guys would like the low-end torque of the UEL tune. The UEL tune proves it has more low-end torque on the freeway, getting better mileage and accelerating without needing to downshift as much. The instant MPG drops down when accelerating, no matter which gear, but doesn't drop down as low when it's in 6th gear versus 5th gear. I don't have to fear I've ruined my average MPG every time I rev up a gear, since it doesn't suck as much revving up as the EL tune, and because i can make up for lost mileage easier while cruising. I drive about 1/3rd city to 2/3rd's freeway, and averaged 28 MPG on the EL tune, and 30 on the UEL tune.
:burnrubber:

Apoc 11-27-2014 03:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KoolBRZ (Post 2036852)
When I say like, I mean like how it drives in traffic and cruising on the freeway. I've been looking for a way to increase low-end torque for automatics without changing the rear-end gears. The UEL tune doesn't accelerate as fast as the EL tune, so M/T guys would want the EL tune, while A/T guys would like the low-end torque of the UEL tune. The UEL tune proves it has more low-end torque on the freeway, getting better mileage and accelerating without needing to downshift as much. The instant MPG drops down when accelerating, no matter which gear, but doesn't drop down as low when it's in 6th gear versus 5th gear. I don't have to fear I've ruined my average MPG every time I rev up a gear, since it doesn't suck as much revving up as the EL tune, and because i can make up for lost mileage easier while cruising. I drive about 1/3rd city to 2/3rd's freeway, and averaged 28 MPG on the EL tune, and 30 on the UEL tune.

:burnrubber:

Wow that is the most incorrect information I have seen. The vvt is different for a reason. Why would an EL tune be better on a UEL? The tune was optimized for best power on EL. The UEL tune is optimized to have the vvt produce the best hp and tq for UEL hence the different name.

KoolBRZ 11-27-2014 04:50 PM
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apoc (Post 2036925)
Wow that is the most incorrect information I have seen. The vvt is different for a reason. Why would an EL tune be better on a UEL? The tune was optimized for best power on EL. The UEL tune is optimized to have the vvt produce the best hp and tq for UEL hence the different name.
I'm going to dyno my A/R header Dec. 5th with versions 2.0 and 2.062 EL and UEL OFT tunes. Then I can show you what I'm talking about. My A/R header is only slightly UEL, see the picture, yet the tunes are quite different, see the pic's from RR. The EL tune is VERY aggressive, the UEL not so much, yet the UEL produces beter low-end torque. I think the EL will produce more max HP, but we'll have to wait till next week to find out. I removed the proprietary pictures of the VVT tables, but you can check them yourself by opening them in RomRaider.
:burnrubber:

Apoc 11-27-2014 06:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KoolBRZ (Post 2036966)
I'm going to dyno my A/R header Dec. 5th with versions 2.0 and 2.062 EL and UEL OFT tunes. Then I can show you what I'm talking about. My A/R header is only slightly UEL, see the picture, yet the tunes are quite different, see the pic's from RR. The EL tune is VERY aggressive, the UEL not so much, yet the UEL produces beter low-end torque. I think the EL will produce more max HP, but we'll have to wait till next week to find out. I removed the proprietary pictures of the VVT tables, but you can check them yourself by opening them in RomRaider.

:burnrubber:

You know nothing about how or why the tables are different. I have looked at our tunes in romraider many times and wouldn't assume one is more agressive just based on the intake or exhaust cam angles. They correspond to how much overlap and/or angle is needed to have efficient scavenging for each header type. Comparing them to determine agressiveness is not really logical. The typical tuning strategy is to adjust those tables to make the most power through the whole curve for that header. Having to flash EL tunes on manual trans with UEL headers get better power is even more illogical. HP and TQ requirements are the same with auto or manual. Also Shiv's tunes are really proprietary if anyone can download them for free off his site.


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