I bet there are some seriously heated debates on which colour windshield washer fluid is superior!

Subaru has a history of building low numbers of higher spec models for enthusiasts. The 22b, WRX type RA, STi type R and RA, STi S201 - S204, R205, and more. It wouldn't be a huge leap for them to make a genuine special edition of the BRZ. The Blue edition is worthless. "Oh look, we put in different fabric and added a couple of trim pieces to it." Woo.

I prefer stroking my gearbox. It's a short throw, but I got the mtec springs so it's very very stiff.

Fwiw it didn't help toyobaru that the yen suddenly appreciated considerably. This car could've been cheaper with the same quality if it came out just a year or two earlier, but it might not have been as polished/developed as it is

Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk

If the 86 is relegated as the entry level 25K sportscar. The upcoming (who knows) FT-1 will be the middle level 50-60K car. What fits in the middle (30-40K)? A lexus? Curious if a boosted 86 could fit into that 30-40K arena. I guess the problem is Subaru .... but is that really Toyota's problem?

haha ok.

http://memecrunch.com/meme/1TW8D/kee...self/image.jpg

Subaru won't significantly improve it because that would compete with their WRX and STI, which handily fill up the 30-40K market.

The sad part is (refereeing back to your prior post) that was what the marketing people figured the consumer wanted after their lurking and mega bucks research!

And that shows the marketing disconnect I was talking about. If you hang out on this forum for a few months and actually read through it and the main thing that sticks out to you is "Let's put a lip kit and blue seats on it," then you have no idea what you're doing and shouldn't have your job. I'm willing to bet the guys at Heuberger Motors know more about what people want for this car than the actual manufacturers, because they're involved at this level.


edit: I don't think anyone has ever sat back on this forum and said "This car is awesome, but you know what it really needs? Blue seat inserts. That would be swell."

Ha Ha
Actually there were several threads saying almost exactly that for the FRS!
There are even DIYs for changing the insert and thread colours.

I am in 100% agreement with you on the marketing guys missing the mark though!

You likely understand the market and business in general. This is probably directed at those who don't.

Not to mention that if they have any plans to put the FT1 into production, they can't bump the 86 to higher power levels, as I can bet you the FT1 likely be the same in terms of Horsepower/$ ratio. It'll have something like 350 and cost more than a Mustang GT, and people will whine the same way they do with this car, but only after they buy it.

Except that there are probably plenty of consumers in the segment that have. There's a reason cars like this, the Miata and a number of others that compete are referred to as "hair-dresser's cars." What Toyobaru have that we don't are a lot of money, boatloads of information and their purchase demographics.

They're not doing a great job of marketing the car, but this forum represents a very small minority of the overall ownership (and they already have us locked in). And let's face it, interior upgrades are FAR cheaper to "R&D"/implement and likely command better margins, anyways.

Not sure they have us locked in. Current owners can 1: sell their car; 2. return the car if leased (my situation) or 3. trade -up to another possible next gen 86. Of course .... some owners will keep their car, but for how long? The point is Toyota should be looking to KEEP these owners in next gen 86s or some other Toyota such as the FT-1. Business 101: you succeeded in getting the customer .... now KEEP the customer.

How many other car companies in this price range follow that mentality though? I can't think of any other car company that listened to the consumer unless there was a recall.

I'm sure people have been clamoring at Toyota to build another supra and we are finally seeing something coming out that might fill that spot. Subaru found a niche they wanted to stick with with their awd and 4wd cars. I'm sure each company heard from countless people about changes they should make but it just wasn't feasible.

I feel that the auto manufacturers have been putting out what they feel will make the most people happy and unfortunately, the people that want 250, 300, 350hp gt86s are the minority

I don't understand why this is even a debate -- it was pretty well stated from the start that this car was to be a simplified, lightweight nimble handler that would be cheap enough for young enthusiasts to buy and modify in any way they see fit.

If this car had come from the factory with a turbo I would not have been able to buy it brand new which for myself made this car even that much more exciting. If I had more money I would probably buy a Cayman S or wait for the FT-1.

As it is though I hope to get it paid off soon and when warranty is up add FI.

ARG. No one is arguing that the 86 should not have been offered as is, I am just saying they needed to plan a TRD/STi version with a turbo. Sort of like base Mustang, GT Mustang. Base Cayman, Cayman S. etc.

I am with Braces above: I am planning my next car purchase and as it stands, Toyota or Subie has nothing for me. The WRX should not compete with a Toyobaru sports car because that's a sedan with chunky styling. Different beast.

Sure it is. It's Subaru's assembly plant so at the end of the day Toyota needs their partners to play along, at least for the moment.

Great point made here!

Totally agree with the OP. Really well written by the way :)


For the next gen, more than anything else, I'd be more interested in how much more weight can be removed from the base car than whether it might come with a boosted engine. Pulling 50kg out and slotting in a more aggressive diff ratio would be transformative and all without effecting the durability or price by much.


I recall reading interviews where it was mentioned they already have a pretty good idea of where some more weight can be pulled. Sorry I'd have to go for a bit of a dig and find the article.

I don't think there was a business case for two versions. The Mustang sells so, so many more partially because even the V6 has a much broader market (it isn't tiny, it has heritage to draw from, and it is pretty much specifically designed with U.S. market tastes in mind). Both companies are pretty conservative when it comes to model variation.


Sent from Tandy 400

Don't know how it is elsewhere, but my dealership admitted to me that their shop guys aren't as familiar with it simply because it's a Subie. I can see why Toyota wouldn't want to commit to even more variance until they got their own parts inside.

Yeah, it makes sense to keep the twins NA to keep the price point were it is now. If they add FI, it'll push the price over into WRX territory.

If you look at these forums you will find that there are a lot more people that do visual mods and simple bolt ons than there are that go FI or even get a tune. It makes perfect sense for Toyota and Subaru to release the Blue and RS 1.0 series because those cars come with the appearance pieces and features that most people are adding anyway.

It is easy and cheap for the manufactures to do uptrim models like that because there is no need for compliance testing like there is for engine upgrades, larger engines or FI engines from the factory.

The small percentage of buyers that want more displacement or FI are highly vocal. That does not mean that catering to that group will justify the development coat of doing so or make good business sense for the manufacturers.

I'm with OP, if it was FI from factory with a likely 30-40k list price it wouldn't have been a part of my new car consideration. It's affordable and awesome how it is,
I fully intend to supercharge it, I have a whole list of mods that I will do to the car , but the thing is I can take my time with that, do it how I want, and in the end it may come in at more that what a factory FI frs would cost, but I enjoy working on my cars, making them into what I want them to be, and it's a whole lot easier to do when it's easily and comfortably affordable, like if I need the money I'd spend modding for something else that comes up, then it's there, I can use it, but if I owe it to a financing company because my car came turboed and fast and expensive, then what? what do I do in that situation?

Leave it NA, those who want to make it faster can do so (we are the minority) those who think the factory slow NA car is unacceptable, then it clearly wasn't made for them, they can go look for a different car, and the ones who like it how it is (majority) can drive it how it is,
That's the beauty of a tuner/drivers car,

Why I’m Glad the 86 Came With No Turbo Trim: Still a Better Love Story Than T...
 

Subaru offers this car in 3 trim levels with alcantara seats, dual climate control and exterior options. There's a difference of 4k from base BRZ to Aozora edition in canada.

Making another version with FI (forced induction) isn't difficult, they already have it in the WRX. All they have to do is fit it the 86.

About people doing FI themselves. You lose warranty. A lot more headache and you
can potentially blow your engine. There's a demand for FI from factory, as it would include warranty. Moreover, It may even eat up much more market share as a lot of people don't buy this car because of the lack of power.

About the cost. The new 2015 WRX, WITH turbo is $1300 cheaper in Canada than the unnecessary Aozora edition BRZ they just launched. I don't think people were hoping for blue seat stitching, STi logo, a lipkit, all with a price jump, as much as they were hoping for FI.

This car is near perfect. The only thing missing is a bit more power. Base WRX to base BRZ, there's a difference of $2600. Why did this car not come with the same powertrain as the wrx?!??

As some people are happy to pay extra for cosmetics with alcantara seats and dual climate control. I would be happy, along with many others, to pay a slight premium for a FI option from factory

Let's not kid ourselves 150ish WHP(stock) as the only option in a car that's capable of handling a lot more is a little disappointing.

Unfortunately is not as simple as just slapping a FI on wiping their hands and calling it a day. The car will still need to meet all the emission control requirements, be completely tested against all government standards and other components changed/reinforced for the increase. Just check out the tech threads on what just 300hp can do to stock axles and trannys! The cars was designed to handle the current HP and that is it.
We did not get Evos in Canada until the X model due to government requirements. It was banned for the simple fact that the intercoolers could not survive the 20kph crash test without raising the repair costs to above the government max. When they redesigned for 08 they were finally able to pass that one simple stumbling block and bring them in.
I get where you are coming from on what seems to be a minor difference in costs between the current configurations and older platforms such as the WRX but to bring in a new FI Twin would actually cost a whole lot more.
Would some pay it? No doubt.
Would enough to make it economically feasible for the manufacturer? Probably not as they are in business to make money not cater to our desires.

I think saying doing the research and development to put out another trim with fi would be "not difficult" is oversimplifying the process a little bit. There are numerous posts in this thread as to why it most likely has not happened. Read over those and see if it still does not make sense and if you still disagree then you disagree and there is nothing we can do about that. Wish and pray to the toyobaru gods and maybe eventually a fi version may come out (not saying its impossible) but for now the only option is to do it yourself. Even if Toyota and subaru started to work on a fi version of the 86, it would be a year until it came out.

I would be willing to bet they have been working on it since before the car was even released.
Where people seem to miss the point is they will not actually do anything with it until they can make money from it.
They are not a charity, goodwill ambassador or fairy godmother but a for profit business that needs to ensure they will make money before they do a thing!
I work for a company that makes brake rotors and we are working on trying to develop rotors for 2017 models that meet the OEM specs and price point. The difference of 3 or 4 cents per part can make or break the deal. That is three years away and we are talking one small part of the vehicle!

No turbo wonted
 

I love this car just the way it is, prior to this car I was a long time Mazda MX-5 enthusiast and I don't regret the platform change one bit. In fact if this car had been a turbo I would have not purchased it. I also own a BMW 135I with twin turbo and its more trouble than its worth. I only track the FR-S now. Still have the Mazda & BMW collecting dust in my garage. My only concern for this car is its long term reliability.

There is a valid point to be made tho: If people are willing to drop 5k more for a RS with paint and TRD goodies, why wouldn't people do the same for a turbo? There are alot of smart people at Toyobaru. You mean to tell me they can't shoehorn that WRX engine in there? How much R&D is needed to do that?

Dude did you read all the posts here?
If not check out mine at 66!
The tech part is probably pretty easy it is all the other crap they have to go through to get the car approved.
And I bet you are looking at more like $8-10K because it is more than just adding a turbo that would be needed.

Ok I'll go with 8-10k. I think there would be a market for that. Even as a limited run thing, I think they could make bank off of that.

They would probably be happy to break even on the FI as long as the overall car margin stays the same.
Not sure you will see anything soon though as they have 100s of hoops to jump through to make such a change.
To us it may look like they just have to build and sell it but believe me it ain't that easy.
Then there are all the other factors such as market share, competition with their current models, etc., etc. that are already mentioned above for them to consider. They will not do it just to please people and as easy as it is for us to sit back and say "why not" we are not privy to their business plan.
But... at this point we are just rehashing what has already been said a dozen times on this thread and 1000 times on others, so anybody that wants FI will just have to gather their pennies and go after market for a while longer (or maybe forever).

Competition within a car company isn't much of a problem if the car is a limited year run (see 1 series M). But even then, Scion doesn't have the problem that Subaru has with the STI. If they can make/lose the same amount of money it takes to come out with the RS, I can't see why someone at Scion can't make a good business case for it.

I'd love to share the cost that goes with just adding a one variation to a manufacturing line. (That isn't even looking at the other logistics... Just adding the means to build the new variation.) I can't because I'd lose my job, but most of you would shit a brick if you saw the number for just the manufacturing. When I did my first feasibility study, it changed my whole way of thinking about why automakers offer what they do.

In regard to the RS1.0, almost all of the parts were added at the port. The push button start and seats were likely the only parts added at the actual factory -- the push button start is already added to different models like the BRZ Limited and 86 GTS and the seats are probably the same deal... I can't say for certain on the seats because I haven't gotten a good look at them nor do I know what is available in other markets. The cars arrived to the port naked (they even had yellow fender garnishes with the 86 badge that were replaced with the TRD ones at port). The aero, exhaust, and lowering springs were all port installed. That is why they can do a short run of special edition cars that are effectively appearance packages. A turbo engine would have to be done at the factory and would incur all of those costs that I talk about above.

http://www.autoblog.com/2014/11/12/s...t-la-official/

This adds an interesting dimension to the landscape, too.

Thank you.
Everyone that wants to offer an opinion regarding the manufacturing/production-side of the argument should be mandated to have at least a basic understanding or familiarity of industrial engineering. I think that'd remove a lot of the comments, or at least offer a new discussion instead of "lol but it's not that hard to throw another subie engine in there i see it all the time lol 5-10k"

I would believe that most manufacturers when designing a new car would have already planned ALL of the future variants from the start. The initial platform would have been designed for possible future power upgrades, convertible, etc. etc. No company decides midway through a model cycle to add FI on a whim. Obviously the life cycle of this car has already been planned. Lots of external enhancements and possibly no power upgrades. Only Toyobaru knows for sure.

And to further add to your point, it would drive costs up dramatically for the consumer. It'd be easily a $35k starting price. At that point, it would be out of the reach of most people deeming it no longer affordable. Ft86 concept was to be affordable for the mass public. I don't see a turbo version ever surfacing. Maybe for a last year limited edition model created by TTE or TRD or something along that and it will be EXPENSIVE!

There are other often ignored arguments against increased horsepower upgrades as applicable to the 86 platform. For one the car was designed with current power output in mind. The final weight, weight distribution and the use of a limited slip differential constrain any opportunity for increases in horsepower from the factory. Changing any one of these characteristics to meet safety requirements would have a negative effect on the best selling point for this platform, it's excellent handling. Ask yourself, why has Mazda not offered a higher horsepower option to the Miata?