Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community - FT86CLUB
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Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community - FT86CLUB (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/index.php)
-   Other Vehicles & General Automotive Discussions (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=6)
-   -   4th gen ND Mazda MX-5 Miata (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73439)

DAEMANO 03-17-2015 02:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by serialk11r (Post 2172610)
First of all I think 155hp is more understated than the FA20's 200hp. We all have seen how low the dyno numbers come out to be for the twins. 155hp is a joke for a 2L engine. Toyota's old 4GR-FSE with single fuel injectors made 200hp from 2.5L and a single cam profile, and that's pretty typical of the first generation direct injection engines; barely any more peak power, but better powerband. Peak power to weight ratio should come out to around the same IMO.

But then even if you're only looking at the high rev ranges, the Miata's engine probably has similar power around 5000rpm but it's pulling way less mass. If 155hp is true, then the power just drops off faster after 6000. So on the track, the Miata will pull away at first when accelerating and then the twins might catch up a little when the Miata runs out of steam at high revs assuming 155hp peak power is correct.

I think on lower speed tracks the Miata will definitely be the faster car due to having better average acceleration. On higher speed tracks the twins have more peak power and probably slightly better aerodynamics and may have the advantage.
Even on low speed tracks, RPMs are kept high. You know this right?

serialk11r 03-17-2015 02:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAEMANO (Post 2172615)
Even on low speed tracks, RPMs are kept high. You know this right?
Of course, but since these aren't CVT equipped you will be spending time in the <6000rpm range after shifting, and there the Miata will catch up a little if it lags behind after 6000.

DAEMANO 03-17-2015 02:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by serialk11r (Post 2172617)
Of course, but since these aren't CVT equipped you will be spending time in the <6000rpm range after shifting, and there the Miata will catch up a little if it lags behind after 6000.
If you're hanging your hat on the brief moments this happens making up all of the other places an 86 is just flat out faster to make it faster than an 86 you could be in for a disappointment. The joys of bench racing :) . The new Miata is going to be a really fun car, but let's not get carried away.

strat61caster 03-17-2015 04:39 PM
@serialk11er
lol how many hundred of people have quoted your comparison to decades old engines and said 'omfg emissions and fuel economy are higher priorities now gtf over it'?

I think you're on with your assessment though, the Miata will have the nimbleness and grunt to keep up if not gain an advantage over the Toyobaru in the technical parts but the 86 will have the legs to pull away through the high speed bits.

@Daemono like fatoni posted on the previous page, comparing the MX5 to the 86 is like comparing the 86 to a 370z which is like comparing the 370z to a Mustang GT...

And don't forget the Miata will have an advantage under braking and mid corner speed due to the weight (assuming equal tires) ;)

serialk11r 03-17-2015 05:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by strat61caster (Post 2172812)
@serialk11er
lol how many hundred of people have quoted your comparison to decades old engines and said 'omfg emissions and fuel economy are higher priorities now gtf over it'?

I think you're on with your assessment though, the Miata will have the nimbleness and grunt to keep up if not gain an advantage over the Toyobaru in the technical parts but the 86 will have the legs to pull away through the high speed bits.
What do you mean decades old? The 4GR-FSE is still in use on the Lexus IS250. The 1.5L Skyactiv makes over 80hp/L. All I've ever said is that even if direct injection engines tend to be stronger in the midrange than high rpm, they generally end up with a bit more power anyways.

Like I said, I'm pretty much expecting the Miata to be underrated. 155hp is a joke, any manufacturer these days can make a 155hp 2L DI engine with a 6000rpm rev limiter. I wouldn't bet money just yet that it can actually beat the FRS in a drag race but I would be completely unsurprised if the Miata actually accelerated more quickly even at high rpm. What's for certain is that from 0 to 5500rpm the Miata is faster.

strat61caster 03-17-2015 05:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by serialk11r (Post 2172897)
...
My mistake, I misunderstood the intent of your comment.

DAEMANO 03-17-2015 06:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by strat61caster (Post 2172812)
@Daemono like fatoni posted on the previous page, comparing the MX5 to the 86 is like comparing the 86 to a 370z which is like comparing the 370z to a Mustang GT...

And don't forget the Miata will have an advantage under braking and mid corner speed due to the weight (assuming equal tires) ;)
I generally agree with @fatoni 's point. The mission of the new Miata has more to do with playfulness while the 86 is more of DD 2+2 modding platform with a classic feel. I forgot which journalist said it but I agree that the Miata feels more of a drivers toy whereas the FR-S feels more of a driver's tool. In any case, I was addressing @serialki11er 's contention that the new Miata will be faster than an 86 (which it won't ;) ) the Fiat 124 however is another story. But really though, ultimate speed isn't the point of any of these cars. At least not stock.

strat61caster 03-17-2015 06:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAEMANO (Post 2172972)
I was addressing @serialki11er 's contention that the new Miata will be faster than an 86 (which it won't ;) ) the Fiat 124 however is another story. But really though, ultimate speed isn't the point of any of these cars. At least not stock.
Well that's the thing though, situationally the 86 can take on the "faster" cars, just like situationally the old MX-5 and likely the new MX-5 can give the 86 a run for it's money.

:popcorn:

Going back to this roadtest long ago, the old NC was <2 seconds off the pace of the BRZ, if the ND is a hair faster than the NC it's knocking on the Toyobaru's door on a track that prioritizes aero and speed, something more handling focused could easily favor the MX-5. Not to mention AutoX.

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...or_comparison/

DAEMANO 03-17-2015 07:09 PM
2 seconds isn't a marginal difference. With competent drivers it takes a lot of work to find 2 seconds. If it comes to pass that on any track head to head the new Miata is faster than an 86 stock, I'll eat crow pie. At the same time, I'd expect the same from you guys above. ;)

tahdizzle 03-17-2015 07:20 PM
I honestly don't think that this miata will be any faster than the last miata.
It will perform just like any other Miata, but I really think that people assume it will be faster because it looks faster.
There is no real data to prove one way or the other.

Other than pure speculation, we have no real figures. Even supposed "First drive" reports are on the Euro version.

swarb 03-17-2015 07:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAEMANO (Post 2173031)
2 seconds isn't a marginal difference. With competent drivers it takes a lot of work to find 2 seconds. If it comes to pass that on any track head to head the new Miata is faster than an 86 stock, I'll eat crow pie. At the same time, I'd expect the same from you guys above. ;)
IMO, it all lies on what tires come on the miata.

DAEMANO 03-17-2015 07:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by swarb (Post 2173100)
IMO, it all lies on what tires come on the miata.
Troo dat

totopo 03-17-2015 07:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAEMANO (Post 2173031)
2 seconds isn't a marginal difference. With competent drivers it takes a lot of work to find 2 seconds. If it comes to pass that on any track head to head the new Miata is faster than an 86 stock, I'll eat crow pie. At the same time, I'd expect the same from you guys above. ;)
Does autox count? :) I'm praying the new miata ends up in cs. Then I get to see all the qq on this forum. Karma for getting the 370 booted to bs

DAEMANO 03-17-2015 08:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by totopo (Post 2173140)
Does autox count? :) I'm praying the new miata ends up in cs. Then I get to see all the qq on this forum. Karma for getting the 370 booted to bs
Track not parking lot. :)


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