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-   -   Autocross to Track Day Transition "Dive bombing a tire wall" (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70071)

Rickapl 07-15-2014 09:43 AM
Autocross to Track Day Transition "Dive bombing a tire wall"
 
1 Attachment(s)
So this weekend I learned the hard way how autocross doesn't always transition well into track driving.

After auto-crossing my crx for 2 years I felt comfortable trail braking in to get it to rotate around the sharp corners of and autocross. At relatively low speeds it was very manageable, with the only consequence being a big drift now and then and a slow lap time.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8l-Y7ZObmbc&list=PLblyDPT_A26P10obbq15otni_6NVav11M"]Nelson Ledges Off Track Excursion - YouTube[/ame]


Then I got on the track, a wet Nelson Ledges to be more specific, in my short wheel base crx. It was the end of the first session and I was building speed and confidence until it almost sent me into a tire wall. Yes there were many factors that added up to this mistake, one of which has to do with poor brake bias,but I know it was in part driver error because I went the rest of the day, which alternated from soaking wet to full dry, without another big slide in turn entry until the very last lap of the day. As you can see in the video I initiated my turn in while still on the brakes, and in these conditions and this car it sent me straight off the track.

So while autocross teaches you great car control you must always remember that the driving techniques that you use at high speed changes dramatically. Thats a lesson Ill never forget.

Just to show you how on edge my car was that day though, this is the around of steering lock that it took to initiate that slide in the first video.

Attachment 85091

Dave-ROR 07-15-2014 03:48 PM
Was this your first HPDE? Curious at the lack of an instructor.


I've done autocross, HPDE and W2W for years and the car setups vary more than technique for me. I trail brake in both, although some very fast pro drivers (Peter Cunningham for example) will dispute the need for trail braking at all. He doesn't do it and winds championships soo.. :shrug:

King Tut 07-15-2014 05:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave-ROR (Post 1847427)
Was this your first HPDE? Curious at the lack of an instructor.

I've done autocross, HPDE and W2W for years and the car setups vary more than technique for me. I trail brake in both, although some very fast pro drivers (Peter Cunningham for example) will dispute the need for trail braking at all. He doesn't do it and winds championships soo.. :shrug:
Very interesting that he didn't have an instructor. I had also never heard that about Peter Cunningham (the RealTime Acura boys were my favorite racing team when I got into road racing). One of my least favorite parts about the HPDE learning process is the feeling of instructors to mention and talk about trail braking and heel/toe downshifts. These are both advanced techniques that are definitely not required at an HPDE level. They just aren't nearly as important as focusing on learning the feel of your car and focusing on hitting your marks which should be straight line braking points, turn in points, apexs, and turn exit points.

It reminds me of the story I heard from a BRZ driving instructor at the last event I went to. His student in HPDE1 was experiementing with trail braking, and the instructor elected to take the student out with him on track and show him the dangers of getting trail braking wrong. The end result was a spin off track and a dirty car. Even instructors don't always get trail braking right. When I get to a new track I generally don't trail brake for the first couple sessions. I will find comfortable turn in points and methods for each corner and then when it is time to find some speed I will give trail braking a shot in the corners where I feel it will be benefitial and see if it improves lap times. I was able to drop some tenths at NOLA by trail braking into 3 corners. The question you have to ask yourself is whether it is worth it to drop a couple tenths by trail braking to win an HPDE trophy.

Frost 07-15-2014 05:54 PM
Well I am glad you didn't eat the tire wall. I have only done one track day event but more than a few autocross events but on track day everyone tells me: "Take what you do in autocross and THROW it out the window". Ironically, the autocrossers tell me the same thing about track experience on autocross days too.

SirLoin 07-15-2014 06:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by King Tut (Post 1847681)
Very interesting that he didn't have an instructor. I had also never heard that about Peter Cunningham (the RealTime Acura boys were my favorite racing team when I got into road racing). One of my least favorite parts about the HPDE learning process is the feeling of instructors to mention and talk about trail braking and hell/toe downshifts. These are both advanced techniques that are definitely not required at an HPDE level. They just aren't nearly as important as focusing on learning the feel of your car and focusing on hitting your marks which should be straight line braking points, turn in points, apexs, and turn exit points.

It reminds me of the story I heard from a BRZ driving instructor at the last event I went to. His student in HPDE1 was experiementing with trail braking, and the instructor elected to take the student out with him on track and show him the dangers of getting trail braking wrong. The end result was a spin off track and a dirty car. Even instructors don't always get trail braking right. When I get to a new track I generally don't trail brake for the first couple sessions. I will find comfortable turn in points and methods for each corner and then when it is time to find some speed I will give trail braking a shot in the corners where I feel it will be benefitial and see if it improves lap times. I was able to drop some tenths at NOLA by trail braking into 3 corners. The question you have to ask yourself is whether it is worth it to drop a couple tenths by trail braking to win an HPDE trophy.
Didn't get too dirty when that happened. :D

King Tut 07-15-2014 06:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frost (Post 1847734)
Well I am glad you didn't eat the tire wall. I have only done one track day event but more than a few autocross events but on track day everyone tells me: "Take what you do in autocross and THROW it out the window". Ironically, the autocrossers tell me the same thing about track experience on autocross days too.
The biggest difference is the speeds. The inputs you are able to put in at the lower speeds of an AutoX will not work at the higher speeds of a track day.

Rickapl 07-15-2014 06:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by King Tut (Post 1847681)
Very interesting that he didn't have an instructor. I had also never heard that about Peter Cunningham (the RealTime Acura boys were my favorite racing team when I got into road racing). One of my least favorite parts about the HPDE learning process is the feeling of instructors to mention and talk about trail braking and heel/toe downshifts. These are both advanced techniques that are definitely not required at an HPDE level. They just aren't nearly as important as focusing on learning the feel of your car and focusing on hitting your marks which should be straight line braking points, turn in points, apexs, and turn exit points.

It reminds me of the story I heard from a BRZ driving instructor at the last event I went to. His student in HPDE1 was experiementing with trail braking, and the instructor elected to take the student out with him on track and show him the dangers of getting trail braking wrong. The end result was a spin off track and a dirty car. Even instructors don't always get trail braking right. When I get to a new track I generally don't trail brake for the first couple sessions. I will find comfortable turn in points and methods for each corner and then when it is time to find some speed I will give trail braking a shot in the corners where I feel it will be benefitial and see if it improves lap times. I was able to drop some tenths at NOLA by trail braking into 3 corners. The question you have to ask yourself is whether it is worth it to drop a couple tenths by trail braking to win an HPDE trophy.
Nelson ledges is a pretty awesome track in that its cheap, $150, and you get tons of track time I probably got 2 hours or so.

Its not great because they only have one or two instructors so they dont ride with you. I could imagine it would really suck if it was your first time on the track. I even wished I had an instructor through a couple of the turns because I was unsure about the line

Dave-ROR 07-15-2014 07:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by King Tut (Post 1847681)
Very interesting that he didn't have an instructor. I had also never heard that about Peter Cunningham (the RealTime Acura boys were my favorite racing team when I got into road racing). One of my least favorite parts about the HPDE learning process is the feeling of instructors to mention and talk about trail braking and heel/toe downshifts. These are both advanced techniques that are definitely not required at an HPDE level. They just aren't nearly as important as focusing on learning the feel of your car and focusing on hitting your marks which should be straight line braking points, turn in points, apexs, and turn exit points.

It reminds me of the story I heard from a BRZ driving instructor at the last event I went to. His student in HPDE1 was experiementing with trail braking, and the instructor elected to take the student out with him on track and show him the dangers of getting trail braking wrong. The end result was a spin off track and a dirty car. Even instructors don't always get trail braking right. When I get to a new track I generally don't trail brake for the first couple sessions. I will find comfortable turn in points and methods for each corner and then when it is time to find some speed I will give trail braking a shot in the corners where I feel it will be benefitial and see if it improves lap times. I was able to drop some tenths at NOLA by trail braking into 3 corners. The question you have to ask yourself is whether it is worth it to drop a couple tenths by trail braking to win an HPDE trophy.


Peter tends to brake, off, turn in, throttle. He was with us at Road America a few weeks ago with the RealTime TSX and the RTR Integra Type-R museum car (on loan from Honda for the event thanks to HPD).


I generally don't trail brake my first EVENT at a new track. Hell I've found myself only using it lately when I need rotation and not trail braking in general anymore.

Dave-ROR 07-15-2014 07:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by King Tut (Post 1847773)
The biggest difference is the speeds. The inputs you are able to put in at the lower speeds of an AutoX will not work at the higher speeds of a track day.


I purposely use rough/quick inputs for autocross to get my non-autox setup cars to rotate enough for autox :)

TouchMyHonda 07-15-2014 08:45 PM
DAMN. That's a shit your pants moment for sure!

King Tut 07-15-2014 08:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave-ROR (Post 1847905)
Peter tends to brake, off, turn in, throttle. He was with us at Road America a few weeks ago with the RealTime TSX and the RTR Integra Type-R museum car (on loan from Honda for the event thanks to HPD).
Sounds like the way I drive the FWD cars in Forza. I normally run a full soft front sway bar and a full stiff rear bar to really get the car to rotate. I would love to get some seat time in a Type R on track.

Rickapl 07-15-2014 11:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by King Tut (Post 1848121)
Sounds like the way I drive the FWD cars in Forza. I normally run a full soft front sway bar and a full stiff rear bar to really get the car to rotate. I would love to get some seat time in a Type R on track.
I actually had a big rear sway bar that I almost put on right before the event but it didnt clear my exhuast. I was annoyed about that before hand but now Im thinking I dont need it right now.


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