Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community - FT86CLUB
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Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community - FT86CLUB (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/index.php)
-   Tracking / Autocross / HPDE / Drifting (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=39)
-   -   Stability control is not fully defeatable? (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69900)

7thgear 07-14-2014 11:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stugray (Post 1845030)
I have heard this comment before, and when it applies to braking the wheel that is lifted it absolutely does NOT slow the car down.

Or are you saying that a true limited slip diff slows the car down?

I'm saying that the system where you have an open diff and slip is controlled by individual brakes won't be all that effective when your actual goal is to have the car rotate by slipping


yes you can have a very nice VSC system designed that will actuate all the brakes for you and keep the car rock steady, but how is it going to know that you actually want to drift the dang thing?


I suppose you can have knobs, and you flip a switch to let the car know "okay right now I want to have some fun"?

maybe in 10 years they'll have brain wave sensors and the car will just KNOW


:bonk:

dradernh 07-14-2014 11:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSG Mike (Post 1844852)
Yes... I've actually gone off while trying to reproduce it cuz I actually induced it and just... didn't slow down :lol:
Hope it was fun! :D

Will ice mode in this car stop if after inducing it the driver releases a slight amount of brake pressure, or maybe a bit more? If not, what do you do to get the braking back?

feldy 07-14-2014 12:48 PM
From what I was told by @Scoobysouth that the aids kick back in at 1.3gs with the normal button press. After that you need to use the pedal dance.

Personally I used it once when the info came out. May give it a shot this weekend.

D K 07-14-2014 01:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stugray (Post 1845030)
I have heard this comment before, and when it applies to braking the wheel that is lifted it absolutely does NOT slow the car down.

Or are you saying that a true limited slip diff slows the car down?

By braking the wheel that is lifting you are applying MORE power to the wheel that is not lifting.
How can that possibly slow the car down?

I suppose letting the lifted wheel spin like crazy (then chirp when it sets back down) is the fastest way around the track??

And I guess using the brakes to stop wheel slip during acceleration (you know "traction control") is also slower than just spinning the wheels.
I guess we need to tell the drag guys they are doing it wrong.

It definitely slows you down.
First it turns our car into 1wd
And 2
The system is too slow. By the time it steals away the precious power, the traction event is long gone.

A TRUE lsd would not slow the car down.

I just put a Kaaz into mine (review coming) and its definitely better.

CSG Mike 07-14-2014 02:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stugray (Post 1845030)
I have heard this comment before, and when it applies to braking the wheel that is lifted it absolutely does NOT slow the car down.

Or are you saying that a true limited slip diff slows the car down?

By braking the wheel that is lifting you are applying MORE power to the wheel that is not lifting.
How can that possibly slow the car down?

I suppose letting the lifted wheel spin like crazy (then chirp when it sets back down) is the fastest way around the track??

And I guess using the brakes to stop wheel slip during acceleration (you know "traction control") is also slower than just spinning the wheels.
I guess we need to tell the drag guys they are doing it wrong.
A true LSD works by preventing the traction loss, and promoting the car's ability to put down power under cornering.

The ECU's emulated LSD function works by reducing torque to the spinning wheel, and giving it resistance, to give the Torsen a chance to work. It works by reducing your ability to accelerate in a situation where you are not accelerating at all.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68310

stugray 07-14-2014 02:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by D K (Post 1845313)
It definitely slows you down.
First it turns our car into 1wd
And 2
The system is too slow. By the time it steals away the precious power, the traction event is long gone.

A TRUE lsd would not slow the car down.

I just put a Kaaz into mine (review coming) and its definitely better.
SO you are arguing that if the cars does NOTHING to the wheel that is lifted, the car would go faster around the corner......UM OK.... NOT

If the car allows one rear wheel to lift, and does nothing to stop the spin, we have ZERO wheel drive.

I suppose none of you naysayers have ever heard of applying the E-brake with a torsen to apply power to the wheel that is still on the ground?


Quote:
Originally Posted by CSG Mike (Post 1845384)
A true LSD works by preventing the traction loss, and promoting the car's ability to put down power under cornering.

The ECU's emulated LSD function works by reducing torque to the spinning wheel, and giving it resistance, to give the Torsen a chance to work. It works by reducing your ability to accelerate in a situation where you are not accelerating at all.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68310
Sounds like you are agreeing with me.
The electronic LSD is better than no electronic intervention at all.
So by applying the brake at the proper time, to the proper wheel makes you go faster around the corner.

7thgear 07-14-2014 03:02 PM
well for one thing the real problem is that you're lifting your inside wheel


having your car finger pinch the brakes just so that the torsen can work is collectively known as a "hack"


:bonk:

stugray 07-14-2014 03:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 7thgear (Post 1845444)
well for one thing the real problem is that you're lifting your inside wheel
:bonk:
This is exactly why I do NOT run a rear sway bar on my 914.
Without a LSD, the car is faster without the sway bar, becasue the inside rear is less likely to lift

7thgear 07-14-2014 03:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stugray (Post 1845473)
...on my 914.

ohh you're one of THOSE people

dradernh 07-14-2014 03:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 7thgear (Post 1845444)
having your car finger pinch the brakes just so that the torsen can work is collectively known as a "hack"
Darn, beat me to it.

CSG Mike 07-14-2014 03:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stugray (Post 1845422)
Sounds like you are agreeing with me.
The electronic LSD is better than no electronic intervention at all.
So by applying the brake at the proper time, to the proper wheel makes you go faster around the corner.
It's so abrupt that it upsets the car. The places where it kicks in around here, I'm going 120+, so I'll pass on it.

It'll activate all the time angling out of driveways with a low-droop car though.

TrqlessWonder 07-14-2014 03:48 PM
:sigh:

Threads like this are why I don't come here looking for input on setup anymore.

stugray 07-14-2014 03:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 7thgear (Post 1845483)
ohh you're one of THOSE people
If you mean one of those people who have a 2.0L 4cyl boxer engine in two cars a generation apart, then yeah. :w00t:
My 914 is a lot lighter than my BRZ.... so which one is faster on the track? Might get to find out on my next track day where they both get to go out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CSG Mike (Post 1845552)
It's so abrupt that it upsets the car. The places where it kicks in around here, I'm going 120+, so I'll pass on it.

It'll activate all the time angling out of driveways with a low-droop car though.
Thanks.

I just want to call out those who say it does not work the way that it DOES work.
YOU CAN go faster by applying the brakes.

7thgear 07-14-2014 03:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stugray (Post 1845563)
If you mean one of those people who have a 2.0L 4cyl boxer engine in two cars a generation apart, then yeah. :w00t:
My 914 is a lot lighter than my BRZ.... so which one is faster on the track?

if you're faster in the 914 you've either dumped many dollars into it or your FRS has the last 4 gears broken or you're afraid of the wind scratching your paint.




i'll just leave this picture here of a finely tuned, precision suspension design.


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1329773630.jpg


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