FRS/BRZ vs 2015 Golf GTI
 

Just wanted to start a discussion.

RWD 200/151 hp/tq 2dr coupe NA vs
FWD 210/258 hp/tq 3dr hatch FI

Some facts..

Like BMW, Volkswagen underrates their horsepower figures. A stock GTI Mk7 makes ~210-220 WHP (look up the dynos). And it responds very well to tune and after-market bolt ons.

USDM 2-door with a stick now weights 2976 lbs (~150lbs than a equivalent Mk6). So not much heavier than a stock 86. The Fiesta ST is lighter but makes less power and does not offer an LSD (~$1500 buys you one on the GTI as part of the performance package). Focus ST is heavier, at 3200lbs, and again does not have a front limited slip diff. New Mazda 3 weights about the same as the GTI, without turbo.

Car won't let you disable ESP completely. Hopefully a software flash will do the trick, as it did for the Mk6 (although it took a while..).

The Golf R will let you disable all electronics aids (VW sells it as "feature" on that car). But it will be much more expensive ($35-37K), heavier (~3300 lbs) and only come in 5-door configuration in the US.


All in all, a great all around car that I would love to daily drive and take for long trips. Also, at this point I don't know why would anybody choose a Focus ST over this —the Fiesta ST I could understand, lower price point and lighter car.

Yep. Most stock mk6 GTIs make about 190-200 whp on the dyno (rated 200 crank).

If I had to sell my FR-S and replace it with a FWD hot hatch, I'd take the Focus ST over the mk7 GTI. Pretty much everyone who's driven the Focus ST calls it a hooligan car that oversteers at will and offers unfiltered, raw feedback from the steering wheel, even giving you plenty of torque steer. That's how I'd want my hot hatch setup if it had to double as my fun car.

If I was buying a car to park alongside my FR-S, I'd go for the mk7 GTI, mainly for the refinement. It wouldn't need to double as my fun car, so I would sacrifice a bit of fun for more comfort and refinement.

Just my 2c as a current mk6 GTI owner.

The long-term reliability of VWs is scary to me. I have thought about leasing a GTI to reap the benefits without the headaches later on down the road. But you figure for a little bit more a month, you could just finance an FR-S/BRZ and have something that will likely be quite reliable and still in good shape when it gets paid off.


The twins are the obvious sports cars, but the GTI is still a good looking hatch that drives VERY well. I'm curious about the Golf 1.8T, which has been getting pretty good reviews so far, and the base model starts out pretty cheap. Though of course that's not really what you'd want, but looking at the Golf 1.8T SE (which is kind of the package where it seems a lot more acceptable), it's already within a few hundred dollars of a base GTI that gets you 40 hp and 74 lb-ft more, among other things.

If you guys want I will do a full write up of my experience with VW. I recently traded in my BRZ limited for a 2014 GLI Autobahn/Nav. I've had it for 2 weeks. I was considering going to the WRX. Basically I loved the BRZ but it really wasn't working for my wife and I with 2 little ones. And to be completely honest my wife hated the car. So I got sick of hearing her bitch. When I get to the point financially I will have another one.

What does this have to do with a 2015 GTI? They are pretty damn similar. The new GTI obviously handles better and has a little more get up and go. But still similar.

I don't think the 2014 or 2015 Jetta uses Volkswagen's new MQB platform though.

I like the way the GTI looks, but I've always thought VW asks a little too much for their cars when equipped similarly to other cars in the same class (generally, ~$3000 premium). I tend to like my cars to be optioned up, so that's something that has been somewhat of a deterrent. The perception of VW electrical issues also scares me. I've also never been a fan of the way the clutch feels on VW cars, as well.

Yeah not the most reliable engines. The mk5 GTIs (and mk6 Golf R's using similar FSI/EA113 engines) have cam follower wear issues. The mk6 GTIs (with TSI/EA888 engines) are better, but a lucky few have complete timing chain tensioner failures. All will have carbon buildup around the intake valves due to the DI system design, but at least that doesn't cause any real damage.

That said, VW's notorious electrical problems seem to be behind them. Those were a huge PITA and a bad chapter in VW history.

So far my mk6 GTI has been problem-free. I'm planning to keep it until the 5y/60k powertrain warranty runs, after which point I'll have to decide whether to roll the dice or not. My wife loves the car and wants to keep it until the wheels fall off, so we may end up going the distance with it.

I actually think the GTI has good/decent value for the money if you're a features/tech guy. For the $3k premium, you get more refinement than other cars in its class -- comparable to entry level Audis actually, and a pretty good feature set (steering-adjustable bixenons, full BT integration, mini display between the tach and speedo, optional dual-clutch, steering wheel controls, good navi, optional keyless entry/start, optional leather, etc.) To me, the GTI feels and drives more expensive than it is, which can be a good or bad thing, depending whether you want refinement or not.

I have a MK6 GTI 4dr with APR tune and 3" downpipe. It hauls. 24k miles so far and 0 problems.

Are you referring to the mk6 R, or the mk7 R? I had a mk6 R and you had to do the software flash to truly disable ESP. Also the mk7 R won't be for sale here for a while.

I was referring to the Mk7 models.

Yay, stats on paper comparisons...:bonk:

Seriously, too many anecdotal horror stories from just about every VW owner I have ever encountered have pretty much cemented the fact that I will not be buying one...ever...

same here, just horror stories about VW in general. we had a 2003 jetta that had a lot of electrical issues, sold that bitch quick after constantly fixing it.

Well, former VW owner here. I had a 2011 2DR base GTI untill December of last year when I sold it and bought the BRZ.

Mechanical Mods:

CAI
APR Stage I ECU Flash (@ 7k miles)
S3 Short Shifter (OEM part, comes from said S3 in europe)
Replica HID projectors

Here is a list of things that I had to get addressed on the car in the 27k I owned it (1.5 years):

1. Water Pump Failure replaced under warranty at 11k. Revised parts known to fail as well, similar to crickets in the 86 they just don't seem to get it right.
2. Broken wire in the MAF bundle I removed my CAI in prep for a sale and a wire in the harness broke somewhere between the harness and the ECU. Blamed on me since they knew I had modded the car, paid $350 to have it diagnosed and repaired.
3. Random hard idle/blinking CEL Had it towed to the dealer with 5 codes being thrown, one cam timing code (caused the blinking) and one for each cylinder's misfire. Dealer cleared codes, found no issue. They chalked it up to not being warmed up before it was driven :iono:
   

I tuned the car and did tinker a little so I can't say any of that was the cars fault with the exception of the water pump. Otherwise it was a blast to drive and so versatile. I autocrossed, moved, hauled everything I could imagine, and also got a decent 0-60 time.

Had held on to it I'm certain I would have had to do something somewhat major, even if it was as predictable as the carbon cleaning of the valves due to the DI engine. That was something owners saw at 50k or as late as 75k but would be something every owner would have to deal with eventually.

If the Golf R wasn't so damned expensive I could see us getting one as our next car. The interiors really are amazingly nice and quite comfortable.

Oh and back on topic ...

I think the Mk7 will be a great car, really it comes down to what the small pain in the ass things are that they inevitable overlooked. We all have them of course, just depends on if you can live with them.

Comparing these two cars is very hard to do - they are so very different experiences. That being said I haven't driven a Mk7 and from what i understand the dynamics are quite different if you get the power pack and diff. package.

People will cross shop them with the 86 but I personally don't think they will have too many buyers in common. I bought the BRZ because my fiance got a civic so I could have a car that wasn't as practical; otherwise I would have been a one car guy and the BRZ wouldn't have been a possibility.

The Mk7 Golf GTI for the US is not the same as the one for RoW.

The car is being made in Mexico, the engine will not come with multi-port injection only direct injection (10hp less and carbon build-up?), no fancy rotary valve thermo mgmt unit but a simple thermostat, smaller LCD on the headunit, no LED taillights, no sliding cover over the cupholders, it does come with a manual handbrake and not an electronic one but then the center console looks really cheap as a result.

Typical VWoA last minute cost cutting.

The new Mk7 Golf also comes with a plastic oil pan and steel lower control arms and no longer aluminum. But the MQB does have aluminum on its structure to keep the weight down. Performance Pack coming by the end of the year.

After owning a Mk5 Golf GTI which was a total disaster (DV rubber diaphragm rip, PCV keep going bad almost blew off the valve cover with pressure build up, HPFP cam follower wear, DSG skipping gears, weak subframe bolts causing it to shift to the point the bolts can be loosen by hand, broken power lumber and power door locks, MFD2 GPS and iPod interface constantly freezing, DVD drive motor grinding noise, etc), no thanks I will stick with Subaru / Toyota.

FRS/BRZ vs 2015 Golf GTI
 

Had two CRX Si's so done the FWD thing and not going back! Have a Corvette and FRS now and my other rides are rear wheel drive. Coworker awhile back had to get the dealer to take his VW back under the Lemon Law so don't think I would buy one...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Went AWD turbo and never went back to FWD. Gonna go RWD now for some change.

Sent from my GT-N5110 using Tapatalk

Ordered a new Golf R for my wife as our "family car". Can't wait to get it but October delivery as we wanted a Oryx paint and leather - damn it. Might also be an issue that I need a RHD car too.

Yep. With all the "CATASTROPHIC CAM TENSIONER FAILED ZOMG" threads you'd think the Mk6 was a doomed platform as well.

Message boards can be a great source of data ... but in most cases there is a lot more smoke than real fire.

LOL you gotta love German Engineering.

Most of the local forum peeps used to pull the EA113 2.0T HPFP out to check for cam follower wear after 40,000km and the amount of wear was insane (mine included) especially on chipped cars. After the class action lawsuit, it became a 10 year / 191000km warranty item. My local dealer even stocks a spare BPY engine just in case.

There was also a time when the first EA888 2.0T came out on the 2009 MkV GTI and engines were blowing up prior to or just after delivery. VW instructed the dealers to break in the engine at high speeds on a good 20 mins highway run as part of PDI. :D

Except that when reliability studies year after year back up those anecdotes and issues blown out of proportion, then its not really an apples to apples comparison. I would rather have crickets and leaky taillights (common problems with the FRS) than repeated and mysterious electrical and sensor issues that leave me stranded or without headlights...(see several Audi/VW issues over the years)

x3! I remember coming across this article not too long ago and it was pretty spot on:

http://dougdemuro.kinja.com/german-r...mer-1572026115

As sophisticated looking and sturdy as those V-dubs might be, I'll stick with my FR-S :happyanim:

GTI > BRZ.

I just bought my GTI a few days ago and love it! I test drove the BRZ at 3 Subaru dealerships and it only took one shot at the Volkswagen dealership to get me hooked to the Turbocharged GTI. The BRZ doesn't give me the wow factor like the GTI does. The interior reminds me of a luxury Audi. The overall quality was better build. I also feel like the metal used to build the fenders and frame for the GTI is stronger than the BRZ.

But does it pass emissions...? Haha I'm kidding man. I had the same dilemma but I ended up going with the brz. I liked the power from the gti but the handling on the brz is what took me. Congrats on your purchase. Now your name should be iwantanfrsdroveabrzbutboughtagti

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk

Nice feelz man. Feelz.

I wouldn't necessarily say one car is better than the other. They're designed completely different for different purposes. It's just up to you as a driver to decide what you're looking for. Having owned a mk6 GTi, I got rid of it in a heartbeat for the BRZ because I found the car way more fun to drive. Is the GTI faster? of course, but how a car makes you feel is the most important, and it sounds like for you it was the opposite. Either way, you can't go wrong with either car. I love the GTI and its still one of the best all around vehicles you can buy for the money. I'll end this by saying I'm about to go pick up a Golf R today to go along with my BRZ so we can be buddies :)

It depends how you use your car. For long roadtrips, I prefer my GTI (mk6) because it's quieter, rides softer, and has a better interior. For track use or back roads, I take my FR-S because it handles better and is just more fun.

Honestly it's hard to say one is better than the other. They are just very good at different things. It comes down to how you use your car, but congrats and glad you like your new GTI.

Bingo well said.

So before I rag on the GTI, when they advertise their HP is it to the wheels or is it crank HP?

Any car is usually advertised with power to the crank. It's a bigger number and looks more appealing. Unless the car already has badass numbers then it doesn't matter haha.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk

I was wondering because for a turbo charged engine the numbers are pretty low 200-210HP while Civic Si and 86s make that same power NA. Yeah I know the GTI has more TQ and so does the Si but the numbers just look disappointing to me for a turbo engine to only have that kind of power.

Ehh, its probably a cost thing. The same block puts out 300hp in golf r for $10k more. Also tq is super important 260 tq is miles apart from 150.

FRS/BRZ vs 2015 Golf GTI
 

Actually it's been shown that the reported hp is at the wheel. Dyno numbers seem to range from 210 to 230. Crank hp numbers have been seen to be in the 260s on some cars.

That's pretty interesting. It's advertised as bhp. Seems they are pretty modest. Really modest actually. Unlike our advertised numbers... And that torque dip..

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk

It is common for German companies to underrate their numbers. A stage 1 flash gives the car the pep that should have come from the factory. I'm on stage 2 and that's my cut off point.

Well that makes a lot more sense now I was really starting to doubt the GTIs lol how do you have a turbo and that much torque and still only output 200hp. I don't get why they would advertise the numbers like that though.

It helps VW with marketing. GTI owners tend to not be overly concerned with hp ratings anyway, plus a bigger advertised gap in output between the GTI and Golf R helps market the R as the clear performance-oriented option. Marketing the GTI with claimed hp between 240-250 doesn't seem like it's too far down on power from the R.