Airlift on the track?
 

Hey guys,


I'm thinking about pulling the trigger on the Airlift digital kit. Reasons are, Im up in Canada and some of the roads are just crap, Id like to be able to take the car to the cottage without worrying about bottoming out and what not. I like a low car, but as Im getting a little older I also appreciate a functional car. Id also still like to be able to drive hard with the occasional track day.


Has anybody driven with these on the track? How do the perform? Im not looking to get out there and win races, just have fun once a month or so at the track with a few friends.


So I am curious to know of any feedback on the units.

For casual fun, they'll be okay, but just keep in mind that you're on a bag, not a damper, so it won't take bumps as well.

There are airbag top hats or something like that. They combine bags with a spring/shock combo.

I was under the impression that the way the Airlift is designed you still do have the dampening of a strut, they even offer dampening adjustability, so I don't quite understand when you say your on a bag no a damper.


I feel that would be true for traditional air bag set ups, but with a "air spring" on a strut body with adjustable dampening I don't know if I agree?

I would think the bags would work OK for tracking if the shocks were valved correctly for the equivalent spring rates of the bags.

Not sure how the spring rates of bags are measured, you might just get what you get at a certain height. More pressure would increase the spring rates, but would also raise the car, so you'd just have to match the shock valving to whatever height you run on track.

I suspect it would be very soft rates compared to normal spring track rates.

I am personal friends with the owner of ABMotoring, who sells airlift. If you have any questions please let me know. Both the owner and a close mutual partner of ours have Airlift setups on their BRZ's. They both have been on a track for road race and drift, as well as street drifting and daily duties.

I have been in both cars and they feel awesome.

Feel free to PM me and I will get you in touch and get you a good deal.

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@ill roller

You might be thinking of the Fortune Auto Muller air cups.
http://www.dsgperformance.com/Fortun...stem-Universal

It's basically a coilover add-on that gives you an inch or two of height to get over taller obstacles. It does say you can ride on them while they're inflated, but that the spring rate will be increased due to the springs compressing when the cups are aired up.

Yes I have seen these before, They alone basically cost the price of the full airlift kit.

What are the comparative spring rates of bag systems?

Can you get stiffer or softer bags?

Spring rate would be based on pressure in the bags. So I think your right in that it would ride differently at different heights.

I don't mean to be obnoxious but you asked for opinions, you got one that was somewhat negative towards their performance potential from a very knowledgable source, and then pretty much disregarded it. Based on that, it seems like you've already made up your mind and are just looking for people to confirm your opinion. If that's the case, just buy them.

Not true at all. I just don't understand how it isn't dampened if its on traditional strut, but only the spring is replaced with an "air spring" and was looking for a further explanation.


I was hoping to get some real world experience of people who have used this setup on the track.


...oh and KCCO ;)

Obviously this is going to be a little biased, but check this out, a pretty cool video.

Edit: BRZ part starts around 4:40 if you don't want to watch the whole thing.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uppK8z0lDg&list=PLDB9674D6EC8C8593&featur e=share"]Air Suspension vs. Coilovers - YouTube[/ame]

This was my friend form ABMotoring that helped Airlift with this video. Those are his cars (Golf R and BRZ) that they are testing with and they have a very close relationship...

Am I wasting my time here trying to offer help? Idk why you would ignore my post. I know the direct contacts to what you need.

My friends @ N1 Concepts went 1:53 @ buttonwillow on AirRex with their s2000 i believe the first time out with the car.

I wasnt ignoring your post man, i was just on the go and will be sending you a pm now ;)

Calculating the spring rate of an air bag is much harder than calculating the spring rate of a typical metal coil spring. Spring rate is defined as the amount weight (typically in lbs) needed to compress a spring one inch. Typically spring rates are calculated using the equation:

k = Gd^4/8nD^3

in this equation:

k = spring constant, pounds of load per inch of deflection
G = modulus of rigidity
n = number of active spring coils
D = wire diameter or coil diameter - measured in inches

Because we cannot plug in raw numerical values for air springs, it becomes increasingly harder to figure out the exact spring rate. Furthermore in the world of air springs, both pressure and volume need to be taken into consideration when trying to calculate spring rate - again, it's not as easy as it would be with a set of coil springs.

There are a two things that are certain more often than not and they are: larger bags will lift more weight but have a lower spring rate and smaller bags will not be able to support as much load but will have a higher spring rate. Spring rate with regard to air ride is definitely a function of bag pressure and volume. Another variable that has to be taken into consideration is the material used in bag construction. The thicker the material, the more weight the bag will support and the less pressure it will need to lift the vehicle. It's very tough to calculate the exact spring rate of air springs because there are (in a sense) too many unknowns. Without breaking out paper and an abacus, you could always set your car at maximum height and consistently add weight until the vehicle drops one inch and do the same at ride height. This will show you that spring rate will vary dependent upon pressure and not just volume. It's a pretty 'raw' method of figuring out the spring rate, but it should give you a general idea of the spring rate of your air springs.

off topic, what spolier is on the red BRZ?

think about this, you're paying 3k+ for BC struts with BC dampeners.

does it work? surely. but if you want the best handling car, you really wont beat a dedicated coilover.

bags will be good for the casual tracker, as they do perform decent.

i've also seen the bad side of it, broken lines (car drops out from under you) leaks from improper installation, etc etc. now obviously this doesn't apply if you install it correctly but with air, there is always that slight chance of something going wrong, because if you pop a line god forbid, you're done if you're doing any kind of spirited driving.


with that said, there is a place for bags and they do work and when setup right they ride great, you just need to decide what you want.

you've heard both sides of the story now make up your own mind, but theres a reason no one who is a die hard track rat uses bags, its just not the best option for that. its a good middle ground if you want to be low and have a car that can make it around city streets, but realistically, its two different realms of suspension. apples to oranges here.

i really dont think that happened.

Referring to [ame="http://vimeo.com/93260756"]this[/ame] perhaps?

I agree this about 90% of what you've said and you've really hit the nail on the head.

Air ride was never meant to be a direct replacement for coilovers, it was meant to be a respectable alternative. As AirLift has shown throughout their videos, marketing, etc. air suspension can perform and it can withstand the abuse on the track.

The video seen here: https://vimeo.com/78528697 is a comparison between coils and air suspension. What most people don't know is that all the cars were equipped with KW V2 coilovers. While many say the test was skewed, it was actually pretty fair.

At the end of the day, air suspension will never be coilovers, that's just a fact. However, air suspension is a happy medium for those seeking both performance and comfort from their suspension.

Hey Buddy, didn't know you were on this forum, I posted that video earlier in the thread. :D

Hey Max :thumbup:

looks like youre right. they were still faster before when they coil springs. i guess sponsorship is a tricky thing.

I don't think anyone doubts that...I think it was more along the lines of that it is still capable of running a very respectable time.

It's really kind of useless, Using a coilover that costs half what airlift does to the end user?
Would of liked to see them put it up against some MCA reds or golds, Ohlins.

so, what you're saying is that KW V2's are not a good coilover?

Not at all, what i am saying is that you can have 2 sets of V2's for the cost of an airlift kit.
A comparable coilover would be one that has a similar cost to the end user, hence i stated MCA Golds or Ohlins R&T. But then that probably wouldn't go the way airlift want for their marketing material would it?

After doing some inquiring at AirLift (because I'm pretty nosy), I found out that the coilovers on the FR-S tested were actually KW V3. They retail at $2,300. That's a pretty good chunk of change and air suspension wouldn't be too terribly much more on top of that. From what you've said though, you make it sound as though AirLift was merely trying to stack the deck in their favor. Which, I assure you, is not the case. The comparison cars were setup by an unbiased race team engineer.

Truthfully, I think that many people who sit on here and bash air suspension have never driven a car with air suspension. I also think that there are a lot of common misconceptions about air suspension and it's capability. There are plenty of systems on the market that can be corner balanced and track prepped. FWIW, air suspension has made a lot of progress over the last 4-6 years and it's not like the days of mini-trunkin where it's going to ride and handle like crap.

I saw an article (in a Tire Rack email?) a few years ago about a "performance air system" being tested on a WRX.
Before that I'd never really considered air a possibility for anything more than street use, but they seemed pretty impressed with the individual height and spring rate adjustments.
Still not sure how you adjust those individually, but I'd be interested in looking at something like this more closely and seeing if it would be a good choice.

Just for argument's sake, how much weight do you generally add with a complete air system over comparable coilovers?

Thanks!

From Airlifts own website
http://www.airliftperformance.com/vehicle/scion-fr-s/
The MSRP is $4,270. So 2K more than a KWV3.

I'm not bashing air suspension nor am i saying that it is not good on a track, yes its very respectable. What i am saying is that video is a marketing piece to sell their bags and you'd be very very silly to think otherwise. If it was a fair independent test why then is the coil-over option 1/2 the cost?

You also seem to be overly defensive about my statements of that video for what reason i don't know but whatever. At the end of the day if you have 4K to spend on suspension a comparison of bags and 2K suspension is useless to you. You'd also be stupid to not but a well engineered coilover at that price like the ones I've stated.

I'm not defensive at all, I understand that each person is going to have their own opinion on the topic.

However, if you're using their site for a reference guide for pricing, you're going to be paying full MSRP. There are other companies out there who sell the same kit for $3,150. ;)

coilovers vs bags is pretty much the same aurgment of supercharger vs turbo

at the end of the day, its whatever the consumer wants

Thanks for the responses everybody, sorry I haven't posted much, last couple days have been busy with starting a new job!

I am really torn on the fence and it mainly just comes down to budget. I am pretty confident the airlift will provide enough performance for me to be satisfied. But to justify the extra cost is it worth it over a comparable performing coilover, Would the different in money be better for more upgrades to further improve the car...lots of thinking to be done.

Khorne, I believe you are leaving out a crucial point when comparing the Airlift price point to another coilover.

Sure you could cross compare it against a 4000 dollar coilover, but what you are not taking into account, is that some of that extra money is for the convenience part of the Airlift package, there are many other components required to make the system function aside from the dampeners. So I don't feel it should be compared to a coilover of a similar MSRP.

If what Airlift is trying to say is that they can perform as well as a KW2 AS WELL as being able to control height, then I would not expect them to compare it to a coilover that would be the same price but cannot control height as air suspension can. I think most people would be very happy to have air suspension that can handle as well as a KW system but have the added adjustability. That is where the extra money comes in, IMO

and FWIW MSRP may be over 4K on an airlift kit, but you will find most retailers are selling it for just a hair over 3K.

Guess I have some thinkin' to do.

On the tit for tat end i paid about $1760 shipped for my kwv3 new.

Retail vs street price applies in both cases.

Dang, that's a killer deal considering that KW has them mapped at 2299.95!

I agree with what mkivalex just said. If the air suspension is MSRP 4k why would you compare it to 4k coilovers if are does soo much more. I have been leaning towards the air lift for a while now. I know they don't perform as high as coilovers can. But I'm not running SCCA or anything. I want something I can ride around slammed on and still get up my driveway. All while still being able to slide it around on the streets and have fun at an occasional Autocross.

I am glad to know that there are some people here who can help me get a good deal on the kit when I get ready. Maybe next tax season. Lol.

6-22: video of BRZ tracking with air suspension
 

I read everything because I'm curious as to how odd the use of bags on a track car is.
I've never considered air, nor would I. I've had MCS and JRZ two-way racing shocks with remote gas reservoirs on my STI's.
On my 2022 BRZ I have Cygnus X-1 Motorsport Edition coilovers with digressive valving and 7K Hyperco springs.

Negatives that may have been overlooked or given short shrift is the added weight of the air ride components, the added complexity, which can be problematic for racing, and the fact that adjusting the height (stiffening or softening the bags) will change the suspension geometry and all or some of it is a compromise for handling. When you change the height you are losing shock travel in compression or rebound. You can have an "ideal setup" for play racing and then performance is compromised for street use or vice-versa.
Here's Eric Macartney's recent video of running on bags. His build list is listed with the video.

This is quite a necro. OP was 05-29-2014 and mkivalex hasn't been here since 06-05-2017.
1/ Bags are rare on the street so it's not surprising they're even rarer on the track. You can track day with anything. Different people, different wants.
2/ Track days are not race days.
3/ Everything's a compromise.
4/ See 3