The need for an oil cooler when going FI (Temperature Data Inside)
 

I frequently get PM's asking about the various Oil Cooler Kits on the market for this platform, and whether they are worth the cost.

To that I always tell others, I wouldn't install any Forced Induction kit without an oil cooler.

These cars run high oil temperatures, and as we approach the summer heat, I think it's very important to have an oil cooler installed.

Today, we took some back to back data without and with an oil cooler, with the addition of our turbo kit.....on a customers BRZ.

The specific kit we used is made by Kate Cool in Taiwan, and I specifically sourced their kit as I was impressed with the engineering behind it.

It features heat shrouding on all 4 corners, which build a box between the bumper and oil cooler.....to force air into the cooler. This is how any OEM solution is typically engineered, and I was impressed to see their solution in the aftermarket.


There are several aftermarket companies that offer shrouding, and I would strongly recommend staying with this design for maximum air flow into the cooler. This should lead towards maximum temperature drop over a non-shrouded solution.


With that said, I will post up the logs before and after.


But the quick highlights....


88-89F Outside Temperature
Clear, Sunny Skies


Without the cooler, we saw 104-105 Celsius or 220F after a few 3rd gear highway pulls. Cruising we saw 98 Celsius or 208F.


With the oil cooler installed, 88 Celsius or 190F the highest we saw after a few 3rd gear highway pulls. Cruising we saw 84F Celsius or 183F.


Right at 30F drop with an oil cooler installed under boost. Roughly 25F drop while cruising.


For those of who you live in an even more extreme temperatures, the need becomes even greater.


Hope this helps those of you who are considering adding that oil cooler to your Supercharged or Turbocharged FT86.


My Best,


Chris Riggs

Photo from BossPaco BRZ for reference:

http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w...pse7fmbyi1.jpg

Oil Cooler Shrouding for reference:

http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w...pstxjom5m6.jpg

This is not an advertisement towards any one kit, but simply before and after data to show the value of an oil cooler.

I think any kit that has proper shrouding, forcing air into the oil cooler would be a worthwhile purchase.

This platform should have an oil cooler even in NA format, FI is without question. Running FI long term without a cooler is almost guaranteed failure down the road.

220/208f is just way too high IMO.

Nice oil cooler! @spdbydesign

To be fair, 220F is quite acceptable for today's synthetic oils. 180's is actually on the low side of operating range. Most t-stat blocks are set to ~185-190.

Agreed, way way high temps even on NA format

If people think 220F is acceptable...... well its your engine.

Understand we are seeing 220F after a few 3rd gear pulls in 89F weather, spaced a few minutes apart.

I can only imagine what the temps would be on a South Texas day in 105F weather making back to back highway pulls with your buddies, or at a track beating on the engine for several minutes at a time.

220F is not hot at all. Do some research on bob is the oil guy .com. They claim oil temp should be 10-30 degrees higher than water temp. With water temp around 190-195, 220 sounds ok especially with synthetics.

I'm just sharing information from our findings ;)

For those that track the car, or live in hotter temperatures, the oil temps will be significantly warmer I feel confident.

If you are comfortable with your existing setup, more power to you.

For myself and our in-house customers, we will be getting the addition of an oil cooler for all FI installs.

I'm seeing about 215F in 90F mountain driving and about 220F in 95F Florida during autoX.

I'll be at Sebring in June, should be fun, but I'm not worried about oil temps.

The Porsche guys are closer to 275F on the track.

Synthetic oil has come a long way.

http://www.speedtalk.com/forum/viewt...hp?f=1&t=31363

Helpful to read.

Come to Phoenix and I bet that thing will hit 240+ after just one pull on the freeway without an oil cooler. I agree synthetic oil has come a long way but I wouldn't wanna run super high oil temps for very long regardless.

Not sure why you are scared, there's been no documented case of any engine failure due to oil viscosity breakdown on the 86.

If there is a case, please show it here. Otherwise, no real reason to be scared and no real reason to scare others into thinking they absolutely need something because 220+ temps "seems" high.

This guy lives in AZ and its super hot there! See how now body cares.

Just become it hasn't been discussed on a forum, doesn't meant issues have not risen from the lack of proper cooling modifications.

You sir are chasing a white rabbit.

There's no evidence to the contrary, but there is evidence that motors run fine with synthetics today with 220+ temps, all day long, in the heat, for years.

I know the track only Porsche guys see 280+ and usually swap out the piston rings for good measure after the season is over, but this is purely PMI.

But we're not talking 280+

Running an oil cooler is fine, I run one for good measure (PMI). It's definitely not necessary for everyday driving/autox.

i ran my turbo without an oil cooler for a year in florida with no ill effects. i have one now, but only because i found a great deal locally on one.

i agree it's a good idea, but it's certainly not a 'must have or your car is doomed' type of thing like some suggest. modern synthetics don't even begin to degrade until well above the temps that i ever saw in the summer with the turbo and no cooler.

if you talking about 30 minute track sessions that's a whole different story, but then in that case you'd want one on any car, FI or not.

Are you comparing Porsche engine internals versus an FRS? lolz

The OIL itself can handle the temperature agreed, it's the engine /turbo that can't. This is a non-FI engine already producing quite a bit of heat, throw in FI and multiple pulls in the heat, the long term affects on seals, head gasket, internals, etc. will be not good, trust me (coming from a guy who has blown a few engines racing :D)

Honestly, I got an oil cooler primarily because of Dyno results showing that after 230 F, the ECU starts pulling timing.

OR more accurately, that is what Perrin dyno results showed.

To your surprise, most of the engine internals in today's market are quite similar.

I'd also be willing to bet that oil breaks down before metal, I'm no scientist but seems legit.

I also don't trust people that have off-hand wild comments followed by "trust me" (and the fact that I actually don't know you).

Have you or James ever seen that in an EcuTek log? I remember hitting 260Fs after 4 or 5 third gear pulls, haha.

i think the issue is the disconnect between what most people actually use these cars for and what the vast minority that race them (yourself included) use them for. i don't think anyone is arguing that if you're building a race car you could stand to benefit in terms of reliability by adding a cooler. the reality though is that this is an enthusiast forum, and the vast majority of the audience here doesn't use them that way. they're building quick street cars, not race cars (though some may not want to admit it :D).

racing breaks things. we all get that... but we're not racing.

again i'm not saying it's not a good idea in any case... FI, NA, street, track whatever. I'm just saying that there is more alarmism than realism on these forums when it comes to what is actually 'required' vs. what is a 'good idea'.

I have a few logs I can check out from another car, but have never reached 230 on my car yet after radiator/oil cooler.

To reiterate...you're all missing the point. It's NOT about oil degradation, it's about the internals of this engine under those temperatures long term.

Why do you think the following Turbo cars come standard with oil coolers:

EvoX, GTR, STi, etc.


It's not the actual oil that's the concern but to each their own. We'll follow up this convo for guys going FI after 5 years of ''spirited driving'' and tracking with 220+ oil temps on a regular basis.


Good article:
http://www.examiner.com/article/oil-...surance-policy

Remind me not to ever log and research anything here, seems like some of you guys are extremely unappreciated.

Chris is just trying to keep the car safe and you guys are just shitting all over him.

Regardless if 220F is "normal temp" i rather have my temps run lower.

Interesting stuff in there.

It looks like the non oil cooler temps were spot on.

I'm specifically talking for any FI application being added to this car to cool the turbo and all seals/gaskets inside the engine which are not designed to withstand those temperatures. (not referring to OEM NA cars, occasional pulls).

Like I said, to each their own but if you put FI on this car and think that 220-250f oil temperatures are okay, then power to you but that's just loco!

And people also don't get that yes, short term it's not an issue but a non-factory turbo charged car that has no turbo cooling/oil cooling is a ticking time bomb.

my car ran ~230f bone stock... so if that's the case (re: gasket materials and what not) then toyota has some serious warranty concerns coming down the line.

You are correct as in there are no real documented failures on this for this platform.

I also do no personally have any hard written facts to support engine failure myself on this platform. I should have made myself clear as IMO personally it is a good idea to have one. For my actual piece of mind I say this but you're correct, it isn't absolutely needed for normal street driving.

"to my surprise" thanks, I'm very up to speed on what different internals look like OEM and aftermarket. And you're wrong, they are definitely not all similar. Engine internals are always getting much better but they "all" aren't very similar, your claim is far too vague and you can't back that up. Please let me know your source for this information --- my source for information is having worked on at least 20 different platforms and multiple (many) engine's over the last several years.

In all fairness, the FRS/BRZ do have decent internals OEM but you can't compare them to that of a turbo charged Porsche that is designed from factory to run at those temps.

FYI, Porsche have oil coolers OEM for turbocharged applications but I guess they're just crazy-pants too

You call this research? I see no actual data from anyone in this thread, including myself.

I think you forget vendors on this forum are trying to sell products. That's the point of a vendor. Some vendors try to help people, this generates business or "hype". This isn't the first time I've seen "hype" about an issue posted by a vendor.

People have jobs to do and are trying to make money, that's fine. My point is that if you want to raise awareness about a topic, please be more careful in your wording, and try not to use scare tactics. The users of this forum should EXPECT real world data about products their going to spend hard earned cash on, not because they say "trust me".

When I saw (Temperature Data Inside) in the forum title, I was pretty let down to see a 1-2 line comment about a highway pull and sitting idle. I was expecting to see like, actual science, about why oil coolers are needed in an FI application.

I may be hated for saying this, but, "come on man".

Once again, missing the point. I'm not saying these cars don't have a higher temperature or equipped to handle 230F on occasion.....TURBO COOLING -- AN OIL COOLER TO COOL THE TURBO WHICH HAS NONE FROM THE FACTORY RUNNING INSANE TEMPS.

Maybe in caps you guys will get it haha :bonk: :bonk: :bonk: :bonk: :bonk:


Hot oil will kill your turbo, point final. Then that extra hot oil splash back through the engine at 240-270F on repeated pulls, recipe for disaster. If you guys can shell out the extra coin to add an oil cooler to your turbo setup, then you should rethink the turbo upgrade all together

That's my two cents, please take my advice and keep your turbo cool and don't put your engine through unnecessarily high temps :cheers:

Ok bro.

I didn't say "turbocharged" porsches. I said the track Porsche guys. For your info, the vast majority of track porsches are n/a.

But I'd like to continue our discussion in PMs if you wish because frankly your posts are getting out of hand in my opinion.

as one last side note, turbos operate at 1200-2000F so with no cooling, you're going to be in trouble long term

No need, I spoke my peace. If you guys want to risk running a turbo with no cooler, power to you but that's a REALLY bad idea.

And that's coming from when I turbo'd one of my first cars and blew the head gasket within a year for that exact reason

I'm quoting this because of it's absurd.

None of those temps actually see the center cartridge. Those are purely EGTs.

Look man, just PM me your concerns it'll look better for you in the long run.

I have no concerns, it's your cars. I'm just letting you know the truth that any turbo should have an oil cooler otherwise there will be piston blow by and head gasket failure in no time.

Cartridge temps are over 300F, that should be scary enough to want some sort of cooling don't you agree?

I understand the OP's good intentions, but when your title says you have data inside, maybe it should have some logged, scientific data in it. Not "my temps were this during my 4th pull.

Please let this continue in public. It's an entertaining read for some of us less educated people. :)

Agreed! I apologize to @Ironsquid for being overly aggressive, it wasn't my intention but being in this industry, I've had so many "slamming my head on the desk moments" because people didn't take my advice (and I learned the hard way, breaking my car numerous times and rebuilding).

A turbo produces very high temperatures and is even more dangerous on a non factory FI application where there is no routing for oil cooling to the turbo. The turbo will be shot in no time after hard pulls or even worse, all that hot oil going back into the engine can cause piston blow-by and lift the head gasket.

Like I said, it's your cars so by all means run whatever setup you want, but learn from the cars I've busted over the years and do it the right way. It will give you peace of mind, longevity on your setup and freedom to kick the crap out of it without breaking anything (or at least doing your best to avoid this).

@spdbydesign, run the car on the dyno doing some repeated pulls with and without the cooler to get broader data.

"Trust me, I blow up engines" isn't the greatest qualifier if you're discussing making engines last...

Ironsquid isn't comparing Porsche engine internals with the FA20's, he's comparing the oil temperatures experienced between the two. Correct me if I'm wrong, but oil's purpose is pretty constant across all manufacturers. And that purpose is lubrication. This leads to reason that we should be comparing oil temperatures, and determining our oil coiling needs (if any) based on the oils effective operating temperature.

As actual data has shown, 220* is quite far from achieving this degradation if quality oil is used, and pretty close to typical operating temperatures.

As James pointed out, a vast majority (I'd risk being proven wrong by even saying close to 99%) of us are simply driving our cars spiritedly, with a potential trip to the racetrack every so often. With all the fear-mongering about dangerously high oil temperatures, people lose sight of what is important, which is keeping the oil within its effective operating temperature range.

The concern isn't always too much heat. We have about as much concern as possible going around about super hot days combined with strenuous driving conditions, but let's not forget that oil's operating range has a minimum end as well. Solving the heat problem for the 2 days a year that most of our cars will see scorching heat and a track, we can actually cause problems (or increased engine wear) during the rest of the year, especially for those of us who experience winter and drive moderately civil 95% of the time.

Having a super effective oil cooler may keep your oil cool enough to stay safe in the extreme heat, but it will also slow down the process of bringing your oil up to operating temperatures in the winter. This will increase wear. Bob the oil guy says 212* is typical of oil operating temperature. Using that figure and the numbers SPD is sharing (183* cruising with ambients of ~90*), you're probably going to experience oil temperatures undesirably low on cool/cold days (you don't really want to run oil temps below 180*). I'd venture to say that, in those circumstances, running an oil cooler in the winter is just as dangerous as not running an oil cooler in the summer.