Is the brz/frs too expensive?
 

Initially, they wanted this vehicle to start out in the low 20's and that's what got a lot of people excited. 200 hp, rwd, toyobaru quality, good styling, sold! Instead they end up in the $25k to $30k range.

For what you get, I don't really think this car will be as popular as most of us think it will be. I think that by the end of the year, dealerships will be selling this vehicle under invoice...and that's probably when I might bite. What I really want is 240-260 hp, better suspension, aka sti version for low 30's and I'll bite. Otoh, for low to mid 30's...you can purchase a wrx sti that's bigger, faster, just not as fun to drive.

Basically, after the initial hype/demand, I think sales will stagger because toyobaru priced this vehicle too high. What do you guys think? Do you think they can sustain a high demand at this price?

I personally think its a alright price. Slightly steep on my side but it'll benefit me as not everyone can get it then.

It's also only expensive if the dealer's add a stupid amount of additional MSRP because they want to milk the car.

I think for what you get it's a reasonable price.

Really reasonable in terms of Canadian pricing.

You know what I think a big part of the problem is, people have become too jaded by platform sharing and its effects on vehicle costs. When an almost completely bespoke vehicle comes around - especially from an Asian manufacturer (who makes inexpensive cars in the public's eye), most people cannot fathom why it costs what it does.

OP: think about the R&D it took to get the car here, think about the R&D it's going to take to get the 'STI' version everyone seems to want, think about the marketing, Gov't safety regulations for homologation as a world car, and think about the other cars that share the BRZ/FR-S (I am lumping them in as the same car) with which Subaru and Toyota can spread the costs over - hint: there are none.

The car is reasonably priced.

One other thing people tend to forget: when Toyota/ Subaru announced this project back in 08, and said they were aiming for a sub- $20,000 price-tag, the world economy was still kinda clicking along alright. Fast forward to today, where the Japanese yen is solidly 25% stronger against the dollar, and that means prices on cars they export have to go up as well. Seems kinda counter-intuitive to most people, but Japan is not happy that the yen became so valuable, because they're an export driven economy, and a more valuable yen hurts their bottom line. It means they get fewer dollars in overseas sales for every yen spent making something. THAT'S the single biggest reason our price shot up $5k; they met their price goals just fine for the Japanese domestic market. :sigh:

Search and you'll find lots of posts about this. For instance:

IMO, the starting price is reasonable, especially given the yen's strength. But I won't be surprised if it's selling for invoice by the end of the year.

Back in 2008, the Yen was 105 Yen per American dollar. At $20k dollars, that's 2,100,000 yen. In 2012, there are only 80 Yen per American Dollar.

(20,000 Dollars) * (105 Yen/Dollar) = 2,100,000 Yen.

(2,100,000 Yen) / (80 Yen/Dollar) = 26,250 American Dollars.

So they met their price target of ~2,000,000 Yen. It's just that the American Dollar has dropped in the meantime. It's hard to blame Subaru and Toyota for that.

Just in case anyone wants to see the math.

Sources:
http://www.x-rates.com/cgi-bin/hlookup.cgi

http://www.x-rates.com/calculator.html

I wonder if Toyota/Subaru will even break even with this car after it's all said and done with 1st year fiscal reports?

Additionally, when you compare it with the other cars that are considered competition (GTI, Gen Coupe, Mini, Miata, etc) the price is smack dab in the middle when it comes to similar options.

The price is exactly where they should have put it. I'm not sure what people were expecting. They brought to market a car unlike any other with handling characteristics similar to cars in the high 40s and higher. I just don't know why people think Toybaru should undercut everyone by $3K-$8K. Makes no sense.

I know they announced sub $20K years ago, but come on, do people really think car prices are unrelated to economic forces? Mind boggling.

Depends on your definition of expensive. For a sporty 200hp lightweight sport coupe I considered it cheap at the lower trim levels.

People are inherently simple creatures, and will glom onto the first thing they hear. Many are also resistant to change so much so that they can become defiant even in the face of obvious evidence if it counters what they originally heard. It's incredible.

Folks: The BRZ is going to be either $25k and some change, or $28k and some change, depending on trim level, whether you like it or not. You either pay it, or you don't.

Just one piece of advice; [rant on] if the price of this car is such that you feel compelled to argue the cost things such as delivery and processing fee (though out of principle I understand this one...) because the car is out of reach otherwise, don't buy it. Don't get yourself in a hole over an "inexpensive" car you really can't afford. The financial system is designed to rape you. Don't walk around with your pants around your ankles and allow this industry to drive a BRZ shaped Trojan Horse right up your ass. You'd be paying for that mistake for a long, long time, and you won't even enjoy the car. [rant off]

I used to feel that because of the interior quality. However, there is NO price to be put on fun driving :)

I think the car is quite expensive, but I totally understand why that is. The dollar sucks, the job market sucks, and cost of living sucks. Everything is expensive these days!

I would argue that, technically, it does. If that's what you want out of your sports car, and there's nothing else on the market that costs less than a new home, that makes this car more valuable to you. With all the absurdly high horsepower muscle cars, and insanely fast rally-car specials, Toyota/ Subaru managed to find a missing niche in the sports car market: a car focused more on simplicity and interaction with driver than speed.

And of course, seeing as there's not much competition in that field at the moment, they're going to charge accordingly for it.

Me? I'm going to pray that sales are good enough on this car that it prompts the other Japanese car companies to follow suit. Imagine... a coupe version of the Mazdaspeed MX-5; a revival of the Silvia name for Nissan; maybe even Suzuki could reintroduce the Cappuccino, and bring it to the states. All small, RWD coupes focused more on fun than speed. And what's that? You say the field's too crowded now, and there's a pricing war going on? Mmmm..... <purr....> :wub:

Don't wake me, I like my happy fantasy land. :D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply_and_demand

:clap: Awesome. :clap:

I never felt this car would be a huge seller. I'm actually surprised by how well it's done in sales so far.

This car is exactly what I want and originally I set my "max" at 30K. It fell within that so I'm perfectly fine with it.

:thumbup:

Completely agree!

Good point, I forgot about the exchange rate. It was just a thought lingering in my mind for awhile. With people canceling their pre-orders, I was curious to what everyone else thought about the pricing.

Yup. Which is why we pay so little to begin with. If people think the BRZ/FR-S cost too much, they should try paying for it in the UK or Japan.

Market forces at work. It's amazing that you can go to Gunma Japan and buy one of these right down the street from the plant, or have it shipped here across the pacific on boat, then put on a train, and finally a car carrier to be dropped off at any dealership in the US and save several grand.

That's exactly what got me to order a BRZ.

Show me cheaper RWD coupe with leather/alcantara+HID+LSD+Navi and we'll talk.
I think BRZ is bargain. FR-S is a bit less of a bargain since V6 Mustang + Perf pack (to get LSD) will be cheaper.

Lets count ourselves lucky that we are not paying European prices of 29990 Euro or $38500 USD!

My only gripe about the car is that I ended up with the Subaru BRZ,
not that I dislike it but I rather order the vehicle with a Toyota badge,
but I REALLY did not want to order the car with a SCION badge.

I guess there is stigma attached to the SCION brand to the point that
I do not want people to think I am some punk kid, so maybe its because
I am OLDER now(27) because I vaguely remember how I liked the Scion
xB or the Scion xA when it first came out around 10 years ago.

Highly disagree with you sir on the price set by Scion at $24.9k, it is a fair price for the PERFORMANCE of the car. Compare that to a miata, different car yet their PERFORMANCE is on par.
I believe if this car is going to tank its going to be because the dealerships are asking for way too much. Ive just experienced this yesterday as the dealership I went to wanted $4k OVER msrp.
As for Subaru, I think any mark up is unjust for the fact its already $1k more than the FRS and comes standard with a little more features.

smh. No offense, but that kind of mentality is a little naive. I'm buying the Scion based off its performance, not its makers or badge. If you're ashamed of a badge that represents a group of people you dont want to be associated with then just dont associate yourself with those people. simple as that. There is always a REBADGE option!

If you're looking at the power output of the car, you have to look at the weight too.
I'm personally a late arrival to the BRZ scene, though I do have a pre-order in now.
Originally I was looking at a 2013 GC 2.0T. It looked like a solid RWD platform that would be a blast to drive.
When I actually tested one... there were quite a few things that disappointed me enough to halt my purchase plans.

Specifically, the shifter is gummy feeling and lacks the solid sense of engagement I crave every time I shift.
The rev hangs (for emissions) are incredibly annoying - and yeah I know I will be able to chip that later, but I shouldn't have to.
No LSD unless you take an R-Spec with a disappointing interior or a Track model available only in the 3.8.
The R-Spec interior is VERY stripped down.
Then there's the weight thing I mentioned above... Hyundai's website rates the GC at 3362-3492 lbs (2.0T).
That 274 HP begins to mean a lot less as the weight approaches Mustang numbers.

Was it a fun car to drive? Absolutely! However it felt very tamed, like Hyundai meant for there to be better experiences on the road.

In arriving at the BRZ as a vehicle of choice I was looking for a good driving experience.
To me, that means extracting the most enjoyment out of my daily drives within the legal limits (and occasionally slightly outside them).
That means satisfaction must start from the moment I first put the car in 1st, and begin to feel my connection to the road as I drive off to my day.
And for the power issues... 200 HP into a car that weighs ~2750lbs would translate into about 250 hp in a vehicle of weight similar to the GC 2.0T.
Not to mention the BRZ will have the LSD AND an interior worth spending much of your life in.
I think the price is pretty much spot on for a well-engineered machine that I actually want to be in.

I'm a BRZ shopper / future owner.
I don't care arbitrary 0-60 or 1/4 mile times.
I'm not looking for a vehicle that I will street race.
I'm looking for the satisfaction that can be found in the routine and the thrill which can be extracted from the mundane.

This ^^^, damnit, this right here.

For those that do not understand, read the above again until you burn it into your skulls. If anybody else thinks the BRZ is overpriced, please go on MINIUSA.com and build me a Cooper S with the same accoutrements. Hell, pick any car that offers the same driving experience and do that for me. And before anybody thinks, "same driving experience," is some sort of cop-out, I am willing to be that this forum would be much less populated if the car did not deliver on that end. In other words, you can bet your ass that the driving experience of this car will be/is a major selling point.

As a matter of fact, not to pick on MINI too much (because I actually like them), but why are they so expensive? Talk about platform sharing between models?! That's almost what all MINIs are; differenet variants of the same chassis. What's their excuse?

The only thing that has me debating is whether the WRX is a better choice, granted they are two different animals it's a hard choice when they are basically the same price.

FYI Toyota did hit under 2,000,000 yen for 86 (base model). Just not other countries

Slight sidetrack.

I think it's a testament to how good this car is (and that the price isn't too far off the mark) how many long-time members here have followed through on wanting to get the car and how many new members have flocked to this site since the price announcement.

Here are Toyota badges: http://www.ebay.com/itm/TOYOTA-JAPAN...ht_1617wt_1064

And here are fender badges: http://www.ebay.com/itm/TOYOTA-GENUI...ht_1403wt_1064

Its time to build that HachiRocku!:thumbsup:

i think it is reasonable or abit of a deal for the brz (25.5$) and you get HID ($500+ option for other cars), GPS NAV ($1000+ option for other cars)

but it would be great if they had steering wheel controls (maybe 2014?)

Im getting mine for 24.2k so i cant complain. Goog old college discount knocked a grand off.

I can justify it due to the fr-s being much cheaper to run in comparison to a performance pack mustang.

Just a little worried about it being a little too tail happy in the rain

In oregon and all.

Just make sure traction control is on when it rains and make sure your tires don't wear down too low..

You should be fine..

Just wait to buy the car used if you can't afford the sticker price, that's what I'm waiting for. I know there will be some good deals on a slightly used brz/frs soon. People will buy it and return it or trade it in for whatever reason (such as baby on the way). Their loss will be my gain (not that I am hoping bad things on others). Someone else can pay that dealer sticker price to have the new car smell. I'm hoping to get a used brz ltd sometime next year for around $22k depending on the mileage. I've never bought a brand new car before, it's just not good economics to me.

another plus in Oregan is that you dont have state tax to pay :)....other states have to pay 8-10% tax ($1900 - $2400) :(

I have always been hesitant to buy a used sports car unless you either know the person who owned it, or have a very, very, good mechanic inspect it. I have seen too many sports cars beat to hell and not properly maintained get sold..

sure it will save money buying a slightly used car. but the headaches of if the previous owner beat on the car or not. signs like that will not surface til the car gets into 70k-100k miles. things you have to fix from it. ect ect

its just a peace of mind buying a brand new car.

but i guess what ever works for you.

This is not a knock on the OP, or anyone else for that matter, but I wonder if people realize that a fully loaded Honda Accord is going for $30k+ these days. Times have changed, and from what I read some time ago, an "average" car in the US is now $25 to $27K. Of course, the definition of average is subjective, but still it shows that the times have changed.