Subaru... what's so good about them?
 

Not trolling here... I'm from the Toyota camp and been a Toyota guy my entire life.

Seriously though, other than WRC what's so good about Subaru? To me, F1 and FIA GT1 are the pinnicle of racing and manufacturers entering are definitely in the elite. What has Subaru proved outside of WRC? All I can dig up is their failed attempt in F1 decades back. Meanwhile, Toyota has had their hands in everything from WRC, F1, and FIA GT1. Albeit, not taking any first place trophies and Toyota is deemed to be the most losing Auto company in racing. But at least they're out there developing and racing at the top tier.

Subaru..? I can't seem to find any history outside of WRC. And if they're not competing in top class, what makes them so good at a racing stand point? Sure they have had a few gt300 SuperGT cars, but no F1? No FIA?

I'm still on the fence why Subaru should be taken seriously. Whereas Toyota has developed screaming v10's put into F1 cars and hybrid power trains fitted to their TS030 to battle with Audi's at the 24h of Me Mans, where is Subaru?

Why they should be taken seriously? Because they are a leader in the thing that they do best a company (WRC). Why is that not enough? They have always been a niche brand and built on their quirky (as many thought 20 years ago) AWD line-up. Something that was not mainstream unless you were looking at unreliable luxury in Audi.


This completely changed the rest of the automotive industry. They are the reason AWD is in almost ever automakers line-up.


That's why we should take them seriously.

Valid.

I guess what I'm after is... Why no screaming flat12 or flat10 in a LMP chassis? Why no road racing?

Toyota also did WRC... They cheated though lol.

Just because a company doesn't participate in F1 doesn't mean they're a crap company. Porsche doesn't participate in F1, does that make them a crappy car maker?

I'd imagine it takes a TON of funds to enter in F1. The barrier of entry doesn't seem to be easy.

How many Toyota parts were actually in the F1 car? I believe there are only a handful F1 engine makers, e.g., Renault, Ferrari, Mercedes. It appears to me the only thing Toyota was involved in was providing the funds to the team.

It's not their forte, plain and simple. They would rather use their R&D money on developing a better rally car, that will eventually trickle down to building a better Outback, Forester, Impreza (the cars that keep the Subaru ship afloat). And they get the added benefit of using this technology on cars like the WRX and STi.


How the BRZ fits in to all of this? Well it doesn't really, other than to give a little pizzazz when buyers enter the show room.

Because their rally cars are bad ass! Toyota's niche is different such as NASCAR, BAJA, and GT series racing. Combining the technology of Subaru's bad ass rally cars with the likes of the timeless MKIV Toyota Supra would dominate all IMHO :-)

Can't drive like a tank through snow, elitism toyota fanboy can't take subaru seriously, drives a car built by subaru.

Sell your car already.

Actually no, Toyota raced competitively in F1 and supplied engines to various teams there after.

I'm not saying Subaru is crappy. Far from it so don't spin my words. Just trying to validate why Subaru should be taken seriously in the racing arena outside of WRC. And as far as I'm concerned, it's not rocket science to build a WRC engine compared to an F1 engine.

http://www.autoguide.com/gallery/gal...rz-gt300-1.jpg

http://s.drom.ru/1/pubs/4/12851/126904.jpg

http://image.superstreetonline.com/f..._side_view.jpg

Subaru competes in the GT300 series on a regular basis with a wide variety of cars. Since they have not made a high power sports coupe the GT500 series would be out of the range of their high power production cars (Sti/Wrx).

To say that they don't compete in road racing just means you don't know much about the touring car world. These cars are known quite well in that world.

They are a company that is 1/10 the size of Toyota...why aren't they competing in F1? lulz.

Also, Toyota did pretty poorly in F1. Their stint was less than memorable. I think they made the podium a handful of times in the 7 years they were there, and dumped TONS of money into the program with little to show for it in the end.

Toyota does have a hand in lots of racing events all over the world, on par with Honda, but to use Toyota's racing history as a marker to compare a much smaller company seems like a flawed comparison from the start. It's borderline trolling.

@Superhatch

Yes, I followed all those gt300 cars. And you're right about Toyota being a giant over Subaru. And if you actually read my post, I'm not claiming Toyota to be any good with their racing endevourers. They're possibly the most losing company in racing. But at least they're out there racing and developing. Just curious with Subaru's "superior" engine design, why aren't they developing to a higher tier. That's all. Could be cost of entry? Maybe? Lack of interest? Maybe?

I'm not looking to step on you Subaru fanboys. Just wanted your thoughts and discussion on Subaru and racing and developing outside of WRC.

Don't you think developing a car in stable/consistent conditions is a bit easier than developing a car for ever changing road conditions? That's what I always say. Sure going fast is hard, but going fast in a car that can handle many different situations is another monster.

Btw, I owned a 2nd gen MR2 for quite a few years...I miss it!!

Pretty much nailed it. Which is why Toyota went please make this car for us Subaru!!! Actually more like.. We majority shareholder bbeeeches go make our car now!!

Why no flat 10 12? Because WRC 300 HP limit and also a big boxer is something Porsche can only away with in line up n financially (even then they never did for public) and lastly Subaru is not American muscle that goes in straight line

Subaru's vision is to pour all their expertise into AWD and Boxer. That's like a the design criteria. They attempted F1 decades ago and it bombed because they hired the Alfa Romero chief engineer to build an engine for them. The Motori-Moderni flat 12 bombed n subaru didn't qualify.

There really is no pinnacle of racing in f1. Its like evolution and design engineering. You can only hire a group of engineers to make something optimized for a specific environment or specification.

And the flawed logic is that the expert vehicle dynamics engineers from subaru cant make a great RWD drive car..well enter the FT86.

There really was no reason for them to develop the FT86 other than Toyota owning like 15% of the company.

And unless you even fathomed about owning AWD car, most ppl don't think of Subaru until mainstream public start see turbo charged Subies here n there and go "what was that? Looked pretty cool"

Unless you are competing in small time racing series it takes a lot to build a competitive engine for any series. Also the engines in a WRC car get a royal beating from going airborne and then the car coming back down and loading up the engine. F1 engines typically have to endure high revs. Subaru also no longer competes in WRC as they don't make a 1.6 liter engine. They do RallyAmerica.

You're right! Now we have the brz... Clearly a road race tarmac car. Odd in the Subaru line up.

Most people own 1 car with all season tires they drive year round. What makes a company that specializes in AWD practical vehicles relevant? I'm no subaru fan boy, this is my first subaru, and if another company had made it I would have bought from them. But subaru makes a decent car, what do they need to justify?

I'm a racing fan, and I'm a fan of production sports cars. For my choice in a production sports car, a manufacturer's success or lack thereof in F1 or other high-level racing means absolutely nothing to me. Renault has had tremendous success in F1. There is no Renault car made I would consider if they were available in the U.S. An old R5 Turbo or Alpine, though, that might be cool...

You want H12? Buy Testarossa.

Audi w 24hrs? Subaru won 2 yrs in the row in VLN 24hrs in their class.

Want some record? 2010, WRX STI (stock) driven by Tommi Makinen have set 7:55 in Nur, which is fastest 4-door car.

WRC isn't so great? You do know, these car can set a record in the any track.

Not convincing? O'well, I tried

I see your view. Makes me think of Peugeot on that front.

Funny Toyota would need Subaru to build this car for them then eh?

I'm looking more along the lines of FIA and F1. You know, where the greatest of the great come together to put together the fastest cars on the planet.

I find it funny how everybody is in attack mode lol. Geez, just a question. Subaru fan boys got their panties in a bunch over this.

Just curious as to why no f1 or whatever hardcore road racing pertaining to Subaru has got everybody so defensive haha.

i get that a heritage can be a good indicator of things to come but it shouldnt get more weight than the actual product. there are many toyotas i would own. theres really only one subaru that interests me. the wins a company has only changes the potential for success. when a car is made and it meets all of my criteria, i dont need potential anything since its a tangible victory in my eyes

Actually, Toyota bent Subaru over and made them their little bitch. Used their own factory to build cars for Toyota and contracted that for every brz there is 4 gt86/FRS made. At least that's how I see it.

Anyways... I was just curious about the Subaru front. Seems like a lot of people are butt hurt.

Pot, kettle....

I think you got all the reasons why and more. It doesn't help that your question was kinda worded douchey to begin with.

Someones panties sound bunched and replies quite aggressive, hmmm

It really comes down to what car YOU like. If subaru made this car alone and there was no Toyota poor mans can't afford a real toyota [scion] version, would you have still bought it? (see what I did there?)

To me I wouldn't care if this was a Subaru or Hyundai, I'd have still bought it. Only reason I got a Subaru over FRS is I wanted the HID, nav, seat material, and preferred the BRZ bumper. If the cars were the same but badges swapped I'd have got an FRS.

Overall maybe look at the wording of your own posts before calling people biased or fan boys etc.

Fastest? That's false fact. F1 is nowhere near fastest. Most expensive & so many pointless drama race? Yes.

Why Subaru isn't in F1 or make an engine for F1? Simple, they did make one & fail hard & it was waste of money, so they stopped. Simple as that

Aggressive? Sorry, I'm just blunt like that. No sugar coating with me sweetheart.

In retrospect, I should've went with the BRZ. The head lights and HID's are worth the extra $1000 in hindsight.

But still, the question remains... Subaru? FIA? F1? Guess no... Sad because they obviously have the engine layout for something mean.

That is a misconstrued outlook I think. I live in the USA, baseball and football are the major passtimes. Wyoming doesn't have an NFL or MLB team. Does that make the state bad? Should people not live there because of it?

How about me being a Yankee fan. Should I shit on the Red Sox because they have less titles? Sure many people do, and in fact many Red Sox fans shit on the Yankees because they have more money and such. Does that make it a valid reason?

Like what you like for your own reasons. As long as your favored brand is in business, support it.

:cheers:

Yes. Because Toyota admitted their engineers have lost their sporting touch. Also they can't seem to make a sports car that meets the safety standards that Subaru requires. So they leaned heavily on Subaru for their engineering and manufacturing abilities. Helps when you own a large %...

Also, Subaru sold 1500 more BRZs then expected, but Scion sold 2k less than expected in the US. Wonder why that was... its not like the BRZ was cheaper :)

isn't that funny?

Subaru also produces as many cars(across all models) a year as Toyota sells corollas! To put engineering budgets into prospective.

Again, in FIA, Suabru won countless title in WRC.

Can you name 3.. even 1 company that won all FIA races? I bet you, you can't

Subaru admitted that if it weren't for Toyota, they would not exist today.

Subaru is a niche brand. Seriously, if it weren't for Turbo+AWD they wouldn't exist today because the majority of their cars have looks only a mother could love and interiors that often times aren't as nice as the price tag would suggest (especially on the STI's). The Outback and Forrester can only go so far and if those models were not AWD, I bet Subaru would be a thing of the past. The AWD and Turbo niche has proven to be big enough to survive but the coming MPG/CAFE/MOT requirements means they may have to ditch AWD to hit their fleet averages. Of course, this is all opinion so don't take it too personally eh. :)

I think the BRZ is the only Subaru I've enjoyed looking at. I find it unfortunate that I think the new Camry is a more exciting design than the new WRX.

Stop thinking about F1 everyone. F1 is stupid for OEM's. The "F" in F1 really stands for Ferrari, let's face it.

Ford dropped out
Honda Dropped out (but the engines are coming back)
Toyota Dropped out
Nissan isn't there
Chevy/GM isn't there
Volvo isn't there.

F1 is a terrible example because it costs hundreds of millions of dollars to play in that sandbox and up until very recently there has been no homologation that even remotely translates to passenger cars on showroom floors. It stopped being a "development test bed" many years ago. Why do you think Nissan, Toyota, Audi are in LeMans? Because LeMans has a superior environment for new technologies... Diesels, Turbos, bi-turbos, hybrids, awd-hybrids, delta wings.. etc etc.

THERE'S AWD CARS IN LEMANS!! Seriously! When it comes to developing and testing new technologies for future passenger cars, if I were the head of an OEM I would have a team in LeMans way before F1.

Thanks for the entertaining thread.

Internet vs Hmong337

No, turbo isn't saving them. Reason why they're live is due to bang for a buck AWD. NA Impreza out sell WRX & STI.

AWD is one of the only reason why, they're still alive... til BRZ came along. iirc I read somewhere that, their sales were up since '11

@hmong337 did you know FIA is the governing body for The World Rally Championship(WRC).

We are responding aggressive because your question was one that sounds like it would come from the kid in a civic who street races every chance with just a fart can on his car and knows nothing about different manufacturers. Go on a General Motors forum and ask why the LSX series is so great, even though it has never been used in F1. The responses will probably be even harsher.

Wait, LSX is great? The only reason ppl use that motor was cuz they can find it anywhere for dirt cheap

/sarcasm

Sorry, I had to do it

I can dig it.

I wonder to what degree the turbo performance cars brought enough youth/enthusiasts into the showrooms who then aged, and bought a second subaru for the wife or the kid? There's been some talk about why it's important to have sports car or an affordable sporty car to create "brand enthusiasm" so that those people promote the brand via enthusiasm and return to the dealership for 2nd and 3rd car purchases.

I don't know how to find that data and I wouldn't even know how to go about measuring any outcomes of that theory anyway.

Know why a flat-ANYTHING is a bad design for racing? Because it's a really REALLY shitty engine to create a platform around, for packaging reasons.

Subaru runs a flat 4 in their WRC efforts mostly because that's their corporate niche, similar to what Mazda has with a rotary. But beyond that, in top-level racing it's really about the shittiest engine design to race with.

-alex

Subaru why you no make one of these?

http://newmotoring.com/wp-content/up...-LMP1-Side.jpg


...now all fan boys are all fired up lol.

But low COG?!?!? And racecar??? :bonk: