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-   -   Turbo FA in the new JDM Legacy, next WRX (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5874)

Spaceywilly 05-08-2012 02:51 PM

Turbo FA in the new JDM Legacy, next WRX
 
Quote:

Turbo Version of Subaru BRZ’s FA-Series Engine Debuts in Japanese Legacy, Will Power Next WRX

May 8, 2012 at 12:35pm by Alexander Stoklosa http://blog.caranddriver.com/wp-cont...boxer-four.jpg
We recently confirmed that we won’t be seeing a turbocharged Subaru BRZ anytime soon; however, we now have a fairly good idea of what kind of power such a model will eventually bring. Subaru has dropped the first turbocharged variant of its 2.0-liter, FA-series flat-four engine—the naturally aspirated version of which powers the BRZ and its Toyota/Scion brethren—into the refreshed Japanese-market Legacy sedan and wagon.
The turbo FA20′s output numbers are impressive: 296 hp and 295 lb-ft of torque. In the JDM Legacy, the engine is bolted to Subaru’s CVT, likely for fuel-economy reasons; we’d expect a turbo BRZ to offer a proper manual transmission and an auto similar or identical to the one it uses now.
http://blog.caranddriver.com/wp-cont...-2-626x382.jpg
The new turbo FA features Subaru’s own direct-injection setup, as opposed (boxer-engine pun intended) to the BRZ’s Toyota-derived direct- and port-injection heads. We think the 2013 BRZ is pretty fun already, even with only 200 hp powering the rear wheels—close to 300 hp sounds like it would be silly fun.
Turbo BRZ uncertainty aside, we’ll likely see this engine appear on our shores within the next year or two under the hood of the next-generation WRX and STI. We previously confirmed that the sporty models will be powered by a turbocharged iteration of the 2.0-liter FA motor, and that the STI’s engine will produce north of 300 hp. The new 2.0-liter turbo four will replace the 2.5-liter turbo in the current 265-hp WRX and 305-hp STI. Although the thought of a 296-hp WRX and an even-more-powerful STI sounds pretty good, chances are the WRX will make something less than that, while the STI will make a little more. A big motivator for Subaru moving the WRX and STI to the smaller 2.0-liter turbo is, of course, fuel economy—the current 2.5-liter is thirsty. It goes without saying that more power and better efficiency for the next WRX and STI are good things. Now all we have to do is wait for the duo to arrive.
Sounding good to me

http://www.fhi.co.jp/english/contents/pdf_en_79294.pdf

http://i589.photobucket.com/albums/s...217ff02_32.jpg

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ddGfJUyMRk"]€ #‚ƒƒ‚ 編›†裏€‘ƒ‚‚‚BR/BM typeD Debut with FA20 DIT - YouTube[/ame]

Interesting that they are using their own DI and not D4S. So a BRZ with a turbo in theory could make even more power by utilizing the dual injectors.

Quote:

Engine & Transmission
- 2.0 liter Horizontally-Opposed four-cylinder DOHC direct injection turbo engine
Subaru’s own direct injection technology was adopted for the new generation Boxer engine. By injecting fuel
directly into cylinders, combustion efficiency was heightened, resulting in both high engine output and fuel
efficiency.
To maximize the effect of the direct injection turbo, the engine bore/stroke was made square (86mm x 86mm).
By employing the newly developed twin scroll type turbo charger with superior response at low engine speed,
high performance with high engine output*6 and torque*7 was achieved. This twin scroll turbo charger was
specially developed to meet the downsized engine capacity.

M-17 05-08-2012 02:57 PM

296 hp for the WRX is fine and more for the STi will be even better, but I want to see the new WRX soon.

Mr.Jay 05-08-2012 02:59 PM

Hopefully the engine will be a easy swap for those that want it and a Hella lot cheaper than a turbo kit me thinks

Spaceywilly 05-08-2012 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr.Jay (Post 204302)
Hopefully the engine will be a easy swap for those that want it and a Hella lot cheaper than a turbo kit me thinks

I think the turbo would be scraping on the ground. But it proves that the engine can handle the turbo, and with the BRZ's FA having D4S I think it will get even more power out of an FI kit.

old greg 05-08-2012 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr.Jay (Post 204302)
and a Hella lot cheaper than a turbo kit me thinks

Not for a few years it won't be.

bimmerboy 05-08-2012 03:07 PM

nice find!

However 296hp out of the 2.0 in japan sounds more like ~270hp by the time they de-tune the crap out of the engine to meet US octane and emission requirements....

Still would be absolute beastly in the BRZ though.. We all know its coming, just a matter of when...

bimmerboy 05-08-2012 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spaceywilly (Post 204310)
I think the turbo would be scraping on the ground. But it proves that the engine can handle the turbo, and with the BRZ's FA having D4S I think it will get even more power out of an FI kit.

Not Necessarily, look at the Turbo 1.6 DIT engine subaru makes, packaging looks like it would work with the BRZ. It is much different packaging than the old EJ series turbo motors:

http://photos.motoiq.com/MotoIQ/Proj...erdit161-M.jpg

"Though there are no claims this will go in the 86, it doens't take much imagination to see it being done, either by them or by us. This turbo packaging is very friendly for the 86's FR layout, since there will be tons of room in front for a bigger turbo. This packaging makes a twin-scroll a no-brainer, since you could essentially have the same manifold as the non-turbo engine, but with a turbo flange right after the 4-2 collectors. It would also be much easier to simply put the intercooler in front, where it belongs, and connect to the already forward-facing throttle body. It's not clear how Subaru is dealing with oil drainage, since the turbo's oil drain is down below the oil line in the pan, but the fact that Subaru already worked it out for us makes it much easier when we turbocharge one of these ourselves.
The dual direct/port injection system now makes perfect sense. It's easier for tuners to leave the direct injectors alone and add bigger port injectors for boosted fueling.
"



link for more info
http://www.motoiq.com/magazine_artic...86fr-sbrz.aspx

Chenslee 05-08-2012 03:29 PM

Turbo FA20 announcement
 
Quote:

Even with vehement denials of a boosted Subaru BRZ, Subaru has still managed to debut a turbocharged version of the 2.0L Boxer engine. And just because the BRZ won’t get it doesn’t mean other products won’t.

Set to debut first in the Legacy, the new engine makes 296 horsepower and 295 lb-ft but comes mated to a joyless CVT gearbox. Womp womp!

The FA20 Turbo motor does away with the Toyota D4-S system and gets a true DI system instead. Expect this engine to appear, with a manual gearbox, in the next generation WRX, and perhaps in a higher state of tune for the WRX STI. And who knows…maybe it will end up in a turbocharged BRZ, or Scion FR-S.
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/201...a-boosted-brz/

There you go, even though it's CVT and looks like the bottom end sits too low for the BRZ.

Subaruwrxfan 05-08-2012 03:30 PM

Interrrrresting...296 hp too, wow.

Chenslee 05-08-2012 03:34 PM

Mash, wait, BOOST, ditch. I'm holding out for a supercharger.

Dark 05-08-2012 03:34 PM

Awesome. Can't wait to see what the next gen WRX/STI will be like.

ZetaVI 05-08-2012 03:41 PM

This intensifies my anticipation of seeing a new WRX/STI. I want it revealed real soon.

Dimman 05-08-2012 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bimmerboy (Post 204330)
Not Necessarily, look at the Turbo 1.6 DIT engine subaru makes, packaging looks like it would work with the BRZ. It is much different packaging than the old EJ series turbo motors:

http://photos.motoiq.com/MotoIQ/Proj...erdit161-M.jpg

"Though there are no claims this will go in the 86, it doens't take much imagination to see it being done, either by them or by us. This turbo packaging is very friendly for the 86's FR layout, since there will be tons of room in front for a bigger turbo. This packaging makes a twin-scroll a no-brainer, since you could essentially have the same manifold as the non-turbo engine, but with a turbo flange right after the 4-2 collectors. It would also be much easier to simply put the intercooler in front, where it belongs, and connect to the already forward-facing throttle body. It's not clear how Subaru is dealing with oil drainage, since the turbo's oil drain is down below the oil line in the pan, but the fact that Subaru already worked it out for us makes it much easier when we turbocharge one of these ourselves.
The dual direct/port injection system now makes perfect sense. It's easier for tuners to leave the direct injectors alone and add bigger port injectors for boosted fueling.
"



link for more info
http://www.motoiq.com/magazine_artic...86fr-sbrz.aspx

Makes me wonder what the hell they're going to do with this motor...

Either a Sport Impreza (since we hear the WRX will not be Impreza based anymore...) or a BRZ STI?

I wouldn't mind a smaller AWD 3 or 5 door hatch from FHI with that motor either... (You know, one with short overhangs and wheelbase, lots of suspension travel, strong chassis, WRC suitable...)

Say ~235hp/200tq...

ichitaka05 05-08-2012 04:28 PM

It's cool & all but it's not FA engine... I think, they just tuned FB engine into turbo w their own DI.

Ah~ whatever

NYC BRZ 05-08-2012 04:47 PM

I think the TRD supercharger, albeit sacreligious on a BRZ, is the way to go with this car.

Guff 05-08-2012 04:52 PM

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showt...370#post204370

OrbitalEllipses 05-08-2012 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NYC BRZ (Post 204473)
I think the TRD supercharger, albeit sacreligious on a BRZ, is the way to go with this car.

I think you're on the right track. A supercharger is likely going to be the way to go. Can't wait to experience the OTHER boost.

dsgerbc 05-08-2012 05:05 PM

Given that it's mated to CVT it's probably a pretty peaky engine and won't be a good match for MT sports car.

SkullWorks 05-08-2012 05:06 PM

ummm....not the same motor....

besides that, if you are still fixated on SC's you haven't been paying attention to the latest Turbos...for instance this is my 2.0L SR20

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c9...012Dyno-01.jpg

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c9...012Dyno-02.jpg

notice it makes 8psi by 3000rmp and that's without using the top wastegate port to assist spool up...

also makes 260whp on 6psi wastegate pressure

Exhaust 05-08-2012 05:11 PM

soooooo engine swap anyone?

NYC BRZ 05-08-2012 05:12 PM

Maybe Subaru will Twin Charge it! :)

ichitaka05 05-08-2012 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exhaust (Post 204502)
soooooo engine swap anyone?

Prob won't work w/o stand alone... Due to different DI

nibor33 05-08-2012 05:17 PM

It's not about the torque curve... Turbos typically have poorer throttle response. The actual spool up time can make throttle modulation difficult. Enought to possibly upset the balance while navigating a corner (at the limits, on a track). I know there are some methods to reduce this response time, but I don't think they will be appearing in daily drivers any time soon. You'll never see throttle response on a dyno graph, since it's floored the whole time.

SkullWorks 05-08-2012 05:21 PM

correct, but I drove it. and while it isn't NA with ITB's quick it will melt tires before the pedal hits the floor and you can get back out...in 3rd gear.

low end boost helps to represent what the throttle response will look like.

Exhaust 05-08-2012 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ichitaka05 (Post 204510)
Prob won't work w/o stand alone... Due to different DI

curse youuuuuu minor oversight!!:mad0260:

arghx7 05-08-2012 05:39 PM

It's likely this is a downsized and "downspeeded" engine. It probably hits peak torque ostensibly at 1700-2000rpm and falls on its face by 5000-5500. That's how these types of engines are. It may employ heavy use of external EGR, possibly cooled EGR like a diesel.

It's not going to use the D-4S system because there's really no point in doing so. The D-4S system, as currently implemented, is expensive and only makes sense for n/a engines. I suspect this new engine will have one solenoid-type multi-hole injector positioned between the intake valves.

The CVT is a wild card here. The calibration of the CVT and the electronic throttle will affect the driving feel greatly. If you've ever driven a Juke with CVT (1.6 direct injected turbo), they technically heat peak torque at very low rpm but you can't feel it due to the CVT calibration.

Sasquachulator 05-08-2012 05:55 PM

Well the D4-S system is Toyota property.....they probably dont want to share that tech with Subaru on a motor that is seeing Non-Toyota applications.

And doesnt the current new Impreza use a CVT also? I would say that would be a good indication of how the CVT would be calibrated in this new Legacy.

SkullWorks 05-08-2012 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arghx7 (Post 204535)

It's not going to use the D-4S system because there's really no point in doing so. The D-4S system, as currently implemented, is expensive and only makes sense for n/a engines. I suspect this new engine will have one solenoid-type multi-hole injector positioned between the intake valves.



Negative Charlie.

DI and FI are highly compatible, "as currently implemented" doesn't mean a whole lot, the hardware is there...tune it for turbo...control strategy changes for everything lets not make it out like different shape injectors are needed for turbo, the hardware can go unchanged (except potentially flow rate)

Charge cooling is one of the largest benefits of DI systems and they are all but lost on a N/A motor....FI loves DI :sigh:

Calum 05-08-2012 06:36 PM

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g9...Wilde/love.jpg

Unicorndog 05-08-2012 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NYC BRZ (Post 204473)
I think the TRD supercharger, albeit sacreligious on a BRZ, is the way to go with this car.

More like sacrilicious

serialk11r 05-08-2012 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arghx7 (Post 204535)
It's likely this is a downsized and "downspeeded" engine. It probably hits peak torque ostensibly at 1700-2000rpm and falls on its face by 5000-5500. That's how these types of engines are. It may employ heavy use of external EGR, possibly cooled EGR like a diesel.

It's not going to use the D-4S system because there's really no point in doing so. The D-4S system, as currently implemented, is expensive and only makes sense for n/a engines. I suspect this new engine will have one solenoid-type multi-hole injector positioned between the intake valves.

The CVT is a wild card here. The calibration of the CVT and the electronic throttle will affect the driving feel greatly. If you've ever driven a Juke with CVT (1.6 direct injected turbo), they technically heat peak torque at very low rpm but you can't feel it due to the CVT calibration.

So maybe this is besides the point, but with a CVT I think low end torque matters less since the computer can start increasing the engine speed when you hit the gas right? So does it look like as manufacturers use more and more CVTs, they'll start moving the torque up in the rev range to avoid pumping losses?

Also what makes D4-S more worth it for NA engines? Is it that with forced induction you can afford a high tumble ratio port and not lose high end power?

Quote:

Originally Posted by SkullWorks (Post 204566)
Negative Charlie.

Hold your horses there, ever seen arghx7's other posts?

Dimman 05-08-2012 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arghx7 (Post 204535)
It's likely this is a downsized and "downspeeded" engine. It probably hits peak torque ostensibly at 1700-2000rpm and falls on its face by 5000-5500. That's how these types of engines are. It may employ heavy use of external EGR, possibly cooled EGR like a diesel.

It's not going to use the D-4S system because there's really no point in doing so. The D-4S system, as currently implemented, is expensive and only makes sense for n/a engines. I suspect this new engine will have one solenoid-type multi-hole injector positioned between the intake valves.

The CVT is a wild card here. The calibration of the CVT and the electronic throttle will affect the driving feel greatly. If you've ever driven a Juke with CVT (1.6 direct injected turbo), they technically heat peak torque at very low rpm but you can't feel it due to the CVT calibration.

400 Nm @ 2000 rpm in the .pdf

Dimman 05-08-2012 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SkullWorks (Post 204566)
Negative Charlie.

DI and FI are highly compatible, "as currently implemented" doesn't mean a whole lot, the hardware is there...tune it for turbo...control strategy changes for everything lets not make it out like different shape injectors are needed for turbo, the hardware can go unchanged (except potentially flow rate)

Charge cooling is one of the largest benefits of DI systems and they are all but lost on a N/A motor....FI loves DI :sigh:

Re-read his post. No D4-S. Single injector between the intake valves. Not up the intake tract. He is talking about conventional DI rather than the port/direct hybrid.

GenkiElite 05-08-2012 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chenslee (Post 204369)
Mash, wait, BOOST, ditch. I'm holding out for a supercharger.

It's amazing people still think this or havn't been in a vehicle with a properly sized turbo.

Guff 05-08-2012 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GenkiElite (Post 204892)
It's amazing people still think this or havn't been in a vehicle with a properly sized turbo.

Amen! My Supra's 64mm boosts hard and early!

coyote 05-08-2012 11:46 PM

http://www.subaru.jp/legacy/dit/perf...ges/pict02.gif

That's the engine that should have gone into the BRZ.

Sasquachulator 05-09-2012 12:50 AM

Thats quite low revving.....

Snoopyalien24 05-09-2012 01:38 AM

Toyota is going to release their cars non-FI for a while till they feel like the pressure for FI is too great, or when they see lots of people going for the new WRX/STI or swapping engines, then they'll do it. Then, Subi follows because of contracts and inputs it in the BRZ.

Matador 05-09-2012 08:34 AM

Whats the CR on this engine?

OrbitalEllipses 05-09-2012 11:54 AM

Some relevant links courtesy of the NASIOC thread that predates any news reports on this side of the globe.

FHI Press Release
Quote:

Originally Posted by FHI press release
• 20% better MPG than current 2.5L turbo.
• AWD system is VTD!! (First time VTD is paired with CVT.)
• Substantial handling improvements.
• First application of turbocharging on the new square architectured, direct injection engine platform.
• First sighting of the new high-torque CVT transmission that has been rumoured for so long
• Lineartronic with 8 electronically preset shift points

All in all, very fucking impressive. Maybe I shouldn't get the BRZ after all and wait it out for a new WRX...or a turbo BRZ with this engine. We should start seeing this (or a very similar) engine in more cars and even possibly stateside within 2 years, IMO.

Subaru Patent Application
Quote:

Originally Posted by patent abstract
This breather apparatus has a rotation separator that is fastened to a camshaft, and that rotation separator has a base plate section and a plurality of protruding plates that extend from the base plate section. Moreover, a separator housing is provided in the cylinder head, and comprises an air intake on one end, and an exhaust outlet on the other end. Furthermore, a reed valve that opens and closes by the change in pressure inside a cam chamber is provided in the air intake. Blowby gas that is guided to the cam chamber hits against the protruding plates when passing in the radial direction of the rotation separator, and oil mist is captured by those protruding plates. Continuing, the blowby gas is guided from the cam chamber into the separator housing via the reed valve. When passing through the reed valve, the flow rate of the blowby gas changes, so oil mist is effectively captured by the inner wall surface of the separator housing.

A while ago, it was theorized on NASIOC that DI could be done without port injectors while still preventing carbon buildup on the valves through the use of a properly designed air/oil separator and valve timing. Voila, a Subaru patent for what sounds like an air/oil separator!


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