Rear wheel drive - how big a difference?
 

I bought my FR-S after having two front wheel drive cars. Both cars were compact and similar in dimension and weight to the FR-S. Both were excellent, but I had fond memories of the special feel of RWD. FWD fans will always repeat the mantra that FWD is essential for snowy climates, but I never found much more than a small advantage in the snow for FWD.

In terms of regular street driving, the thing that I like about RWD is the separation of steering from power delivery. RWD seems to give me a much better sense of what is going on in the front end. I can concentrate purely on handling instead of handling + traction + dealing with torque effects. In addition, I think this gives me a better sense of exactly what kind of traction I am getting from the rear wheels. And this translates into better control and the ability to subtly adjust direction through the throttle. After driving RWD, the rear end on a FWD car feels almost like a trailer for me - dumb weight.

So overall, I have to say that RWD is a total win for me - but not in all the obvious ways. I like the elimination of torque steer, but what I really like is the ability to better separate and process what is going on at the two ends of the car. As a result it just feels like I am driving more car.

The only FWD car I ever owned was a '92 Saturn SC2. (It was given to me) It was like a little mountain goat in the snow. When cornering, that car was totally neutral until it reached its limit, then it would under steer and slide off the road. Fantastic little car for practicality but I HATED it. My soul shriveled up and died every time I got in it. My personal opinion is that if you're going to have fun pushing a car it's safer to have it oversteer at its limit rather than under steer.

RWD = correct.

My first rwd car was a 240sx which was the first car I purchased (by myself). It was funnn to drive. Just felt more naturally like a sports car and RWD also feels "right" with pushing the weight of the car rather than pulling it like fwd. After that, I never looked into fwd cars again regardless of the type- sedan, suv, etc.

This is the first RWD car I have ever owned, I have had purely FWD/4WD up to this point. So the first time that I turned off the TCS and put the throttle down and the rear end slid from under me it was one of the most thrilling moments I've had in a car. I just cant wait til I can get this beast on some twisty roads and really have some fun

not a huge deal at this power level but im sure many people are going to blow it out of proportion. the most fun car i ever owned was probably a crx followed closely by a miata, brz, ms protege, ae86 etc. i dont see much correlation to drive train type but rather an execution of sportiness as a whole.

RWD has oversteer, FWD have understeer problem.

RWD = pretty much bad in the snow, where you loose traction and got stuck.

RWD = Fun Factors

FWD = Safe and Easy

I've driven both for perhaps an equal number of years and I will always enjoy driving a RWD more. Like mentioned above, it just seems like a good idea to seperate steering and power delivery. That said - I have always lived in a warm climate until the last few years. I am in snowy weather now and this will be my first RWD winter.

So we'll have to see how this winter goes before I can speak to that. My thought is this though, my FRS with proper snow tires > my old TC or Sentra with summer tires/all season tires which effectively became slicks driving through any significant snow.

Daily driving - not much difference.

Spirited driving (track/autocross) - very different.

Understeer is always safer. Understeer is always quicker.

ALL modern road cars understeer at the limit. Only excess engine torque can induce oversteer in a road car. There are those who claim some cars, particularly fwd hot hatches, will oversteer but this is technically inaccurate. Drop throttle induced oversteer is not a result of chassis behaviour or characteristics but of deliberate driver induced instability and is of very little use for quick road driving. Ditto inducing oversteer in our gloved BRZ. That's just poor driving to be honest.

Unless there's too much power for the drive wheels to put down onto the road fwd will always be quicker.

Only when the engine torque significantly overwhelms the drive wheel traction will rwd be quicker.

There is a myth that rwd is "better" but it just isn't.

The only real advantage rwd has in a low powered car is driving feel.

The oversteer you get in the BRZ actually slows the car down significantly. Better tires are the answer to get what little power there is down onto the road and driving the car forwards. Sideways may be exciting but it is very slow.

RWD is extremely dangerous and should not be considered by a novice driver. Too much aggressive driving will cause you to go into over-drift and drift into another dimension.


FILLED WITH DINOSAURS!!!!

^^I'm gonna have to go ahead and disagree with a fair amount of your post. If a vehicle is FWD that means it's weight distribution is grossly imbalanced and it's polar moment of inertia is far from idea. Both anathema to a naturally good handling car. You can't beat the laws of physics.

And lift throttle oversteer, mainly for FWD sporty cars, is most certainly helpful in getting that vehicle to rotate in turns. A little bit of oversteer in a turn is always faster than a little bit of understeer.

Sure, almost all cars these days are tuned to understeer at the limit. But that's because mandatory driver training is practically non-existent and because (at least in the US) someone is always looking to sue automakers for things that aren't their fault (see: Toyota's runaway acceleration).

100% of my post was sarcasm

I believe he was replying to Suberman and you just snuck in there before he hit the "post" button.

Nah, just granny-shift it with the double clutch in.

Not so. Understeer and oversteer are almost always due to where the engine mass is located, no so much which wheels are driven. For example the Camaro, Mustang, Challenger and Cadillac CTS-V are all front engine-rear wheel drive. They all understeer when pushed hard. Porsche 911s were famous for their oversteer charecteristics and they are RWD but they are also rear engine.

Any car, including both FWD and RWD can be engineered to be nuetral or oversteer through use of tire sizes, sway bars, struts/shocks and other suspension tweaks. They do that in race cars all the time but for road cars and the average mom and pop (and son) drivers understeer is almost always safer.

This WILL happen if you are a noob with RWD

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2IWxqvsSY8"]Overdrift - YouTube[/ame]

I've always been a fan of AWD so I'm still a bit weary of having a RWD as my daily driver here in the winter. I'm hoping that with the LSD and traction control and decent winter tires, I should at least have enough grip to give me control and traction through the slippery conditions.


The thing about FWD is that even though it may technically have a little more weight over the axle, it still torque steers and doesn't do THAT great in the snow. I may actually prefer RWD over FWD in the snow as it will likely give me a little more handling capability. But there is a fine line between fun and scary so I worry that it may cross over into out-of-control zero-traction situations whereas my current AWD Eclipse never puts me in that situation; it's fun when I want it to be but always has just enough traction to get me through things.

holy shit what are you smoking. Oversteer is faster than understeer. I know companies set up their stock cars to understeer more for the "general public" because it's safer, but imo that makes them more dangerous.

how does making something more safe make that same thing more dangerous?

That whole understeer/oversteer thing applies to winter conditions, too.
When a FWD loses traction on ice it basically goes straight into the surrounding geography.
When a RWD loses traction on ice you still have a chance to steer, using the gas pedal.
It is of course highly recommended to practice this before getting into that kind of pickle on public icy roads.
Personally I take every opportunity I get to practice RWD ice skating skills, and try hard to avoid having to use them when there's oncoming traffic.
Saved my life, or at least my car, several times in the past though.

I hope this is a troll and you aren't serious.

Please learn about vehicle dynamics and then try to tell us something that isn't total nonsense.

What he posted. I absolutely agree that the steering feel, but probably as important is the better weight distribution is better with RWD. FWD, in general, is going to be porky up front and lighter over the rear tires...and that isn't good for cornering.

I've owned 2 RWDs, 2 FWDs and a quattro...the RWDs handling and driver feel are tons better hands down.

Holy shit man you need to be wearing a helmet at all times if that's what you think. So a rally car would be faster if it understeered, oversteer is used to rotate the car rather than it plowing straight into a tree.

For the more experienced drivers, when you're oversteering you still have control of the car, but when you're under steering you lose some of the control

being experienced has nothing to do with a car being fast. also, that makes no sense at all. why are you losing control if you are understeering but maintain control when you are oversteering?

Has nothing to do with the thread but i just realized that I've never owned a FWD car...

same.
93 suburban
97 mustang
13 brz

and I drifted all of them

You drifted a 93 Suburban?

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3_2_ghFx6w"]SUV Rollovers - The Hidden Secrets of the SUV Safety Documentary - YouTube[/ame]

Nick C.

I have to agree. I have owned lots of cars, and all of my RWD cars have been more enjoyable to drive with better driver feedback. You also don't get torque steer which usually plagues high horsepower, high torque, FWD cars. Anyone who has ever driven a Mazda Speed3 knows what I am talking about :)

My first car was a 91 deuce which was a blast to drive. Second car was a 97 maxima and frs is my third car. I learned a lot from my deuce when it came to rwd. I dont ever want to get an awd car because I dislike 4 wheel drive. I would never go back to fwd so rwd it is.

You don't want an AWD because you dislike 4WD? Could you explain that a little better?

Manufacturers build in understeer to be safer because when the average driver encounters understeer ... they usually get off the gas. Better drivers like oversteer because they can apply opposite lock steering to make the turn rather than hit the brakes. RWD and AWD better than FWD in most driving situations.

LOL at drifting a 'burban...that must have been a riot! I'll take a seat in the 3rd row.

Being from Norway, the home of the best rally drivers in the world, I'm not surprised that you would find slippery conditions less than a challenge for RWD cars.

have you ever understeered?

It all comes down to the available traction at the tires. A tire can only provide so much grip.

In a cornering situation, a FWD car splits the available traction of the front wheels between turning the car and accelerating. The rear tires only focus on keeping the back of the car from sliding out.

In a RWD car in the same turning situation, the front wheels can focus completely on turning to prevent understeer. Meanwhile, the rear tires split the available traction between turning (holding the back end in) and accelerating.

The question is 'Which is better?'

The answer lies in the weight transfer when power is applied. When a car applies power, it partially unloads the front wheels and transfers that load to the rear wheels. This lowers the peak amount of traction available to the front tires, and raises the peak traction of the rear tires.

In many FWD cars, this causes the front tires to expend all of their traction much earlier than the rears, causing understeer. As a result of this, the rear tires may be "underchallenged" (they have more grip available than what is being used). In this scenario, not all of the available grip is being used.

In a RWD car, the weight transfer under acceleration gives more peak traction to the rear wheels which have to split their traction between turning and accelerating. This allows them to hold the road better than the front tires of a FWD car. This allows for a higher corner speed before traction is broken. The front tires' grip is also used completely for turning (due to increased corner speed and the partial unloading). This allows all 4 of the tires to contribute all of their available traction.

These things give the advantage to a RWD car. It's better to have the turning/acceleration split occur at the tire with the higher total amount of available traction.

The imbalance of traction in a FWD car can be tuned out through suspension adjustments. However, in the best case scenario, no weight is transferred to the rear tires and the front tires maintain their original amount of grip to split between turning and accelerating. This is better than unloading the front tires, but still doesn't perform quite as well as a RWD car using weight transfer to load the rear tires.

Then of course you could add in the torque steer issues and the fact that RWD is more controllable at the limit since you can adjust the car's angle with both the steering and the throttle, rather than just the steering.

RWD wins.

yep

its great cause you can show off to 8 people at the same time and all of them could be buckled up. haha and still fit my puppy in the back with room to spare
:burnrubber:

The difference is when you push a FWD car too far you end up in a wreck, while RWD gives you a heads up.