Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community - FT86CLUB
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Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community - FT86CLUB (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/index.php)
-   Scion FR-S / Toyota 86 GT86 General Forum (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=2)
-   -   Rear wheel drive - how big a difference? (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49768)

topazsparrow 10-23-2013 04:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TylerLieberman (Post 1288704)
RWD is extremely dangerous and should not be considered by a novice driver. Too much aggressive driving will cause you to go into over-drift and drift into another dimension.


FILLED WITH DINOSAURS!!!!

Nah, just granny-shift it with the double clutch in.

Rampage 10-23-2013 05:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitigir (Post 1288573)
RWD has oversteer, FWD have understeer problem.

RWD = pretty much bad in the snow, where you loose traction and got stuck.

RWD = Fun Factors

FWD = Safe and Easy
Not so. Understeer and oversteer are almost always due to where the engine mass is located, no so much which wheels are driven. For example the Camaro, Mustang, Challenger and Cadillac CTS-V are all front engine-rear wheel drive. They all understeer when pushed hard. Porsche 911s were famous for their oversteer charecteristics and they are RWD but they are also rear engine.

Any car, including both FWD and RWD can be engineered to be nuetral or oversteer through use of tire sizes, sway bars, struts/shocks and other suspension tweaks. They do that in race cars all the time but for road cars and the average mom and pop (and son) drivers understeer is almost always safer.

TylerLieberman 10-23-2013 05:02 PM
This WILL happen if you are a noob with RWD

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2IWxqvsSY8"]Overdrift - YouTube[/ame]

Bristecom 10-23-2013 05:03 PM
I've always been a fan of AWD so I'm still a bit weary of having a RWD as my daily driver here in the winter. I'm hoping that with the LSD and traction control and decent winter tires, I should at least have enough grip to give me control and traction through the slippery conditions.


The thing about FWD is that even though it may technically have a little more weight over the axle, it still torque steers and doesn't do THAT great in the snow. I may actually prefer RWD over FWD in the snow as it will likely give me a little more handling capability. But there is a fine line between fun and scary so I worry that it may cross over into out-of-control zero-traction situations whereas my current AWD Eclipse never puts me in that situation; it's fun when I want it to be but always has just enough traction to get me through things.

bkblitzed 10-23-2013 05:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suberman (Post 1288677)
Understeer is always safer. Understeer is always quicker.

ALL modern road cars understeer at the limit. Only excess engine torque can induce oversteer in a road car. There are those who claim some cars, particularly fwd hot hatches, will oversteer but this is technically inaccurate. Drop throttle induced oversteer is not a result of chassis behaviour or characteristics but of deliberate driver induced instability and is of very little use for quick road driving. Ditto inducing oversteer in our gloved BRZ. That's just poor driving to be honest.

Unless there's too much power for the drive wheels to put down onto the road fwd will always be quicker.

Only when the engine torque significantly overwhelms the drive wheel traction will rwd be quicker.

There is a myth that rwd is "better" but it just isn't.

The only real advantage rwd has in a low powered car is driving feel.

The oversteer you get in the BRZ actually slows the car down significantly. Better tires are the answer to get what little power there is down onto the road and driving the car forwards. Sideways may be exciting but it is very slow.
holy shit what are you smoking. Oversteer is faster than understeer. I know companies set up their stock cars to understeer more for the "general public" because it's safer, but imo that makes them more dangerous.

fatoni 10-23-2013 05:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bkblitzed (Post 1288895)
holy shit what are you smoking. Oversteer is faster than understeer. I know companies set up their stock cars to understeer more for the "general public" because it's safer, but imo that makes them more dangerous.
how does making something more safe make that same thing more dangerous?

Sarlacc 10-23-2013 05:40 PM
That whole understeer/oversteer thing applies to winter conditions, too.
When a FWD loses traction on ice it basically goes straight into the surrounding geography.
When a RWD loses traction on ice you still have a chance to steer, using the gas pedal.
It is of course highly recommended to practice this before getting into that kind of pickle on public icy roads.
Personally I take every opportunity I get to practice RWD ice skating skills, and try hard to avoid having to use them when there's oncoming traffic.
Saved my life, or at least my car, several times in the past though.

muffinz 10-23-2013 05:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suberman (Post 1288677)
Understeer is always safer. Understeer is always quicker.

ALL modern road cars understeer at the limit. Only excess engine torque can induce oversteer in a road car. There are those who claim some cars, particularly fwd hot hatches, will oversteer but this is technically inaccurate. Drop throttle induced oversteer is not a result of chassis behaviour or characteristics but of deliberate driver induced instability and is of very little use for quick road driving. Ditto inducing oversteer in our gloved BRZ. That's just poor driving to be honest.

Unless there's too much power for the drive wheels to put down onto the road fwd will always be quicker.

Only when the engine torque significantly overwhelms the drive wheel traction will rwd be quicker.

There is a myth that rwd is "better" but it just isn't.

The only real advantage rwd has in a low powered car is driving feel.

The oversteer you get in the BRZ actually slows the car down significantly. Better tires are the answer to get what little power there is down onto the road and driving the car forwards. Sideways may be exciting but it is very slow.
I hope this is a troll and you aren't serious.

Please learn about vehicle dynamics and then try to tell us something that isn't total nonsense.

MightyMeeple 10-23-2013 05:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k (Post 1288750)
^^I'm gonna have to go ahead and disagree with a fair amount of your post. If a vehicle is FWD that means it's weight distribution is grossly imbalanced and it's polar moment of inertia is far from idea. Both anathema to a naturally good handling car. You can't beat the laws of physics.

And lift throttle oversteer, mainly for FWD sporty cars, is most certainly helpful in getting that vehicle to rotate in turns. A little bit of oversteer in a turn is always faster than a little bit of understeer.

Sure, almost all cars these days are tuned to understeer at the limit. But that's because mandatory driver training is practically non-existent and because (at least in the US) someone is always looking to sue automakers for things that aren't their fault (see: Toyota's runaway acceleration).
What he posted. I absolutely agree that the steering feel, but probably as important is the better weight distribution is better with RWD. FWD, in general, is going to be porky up front and lighter over the rear tires...and that isn't good for cornering.

I've owned 2 RWDs, 2 FWDs and a quattro...the RWDs handling and driver feel are tons better hands down.

Dipstik-sportech 10-23-2013 06:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suberman (Post 1288677)
Understeer is always safer. Understeer is always quicker.

ALL modern road cars understeer at the limit. Only excess engine torque can induce oversteer in a road car. There are those who claim some cars, particularly fwd hot hatches, will oversteer but this is technically inaccurate. Drop throttle induced oversteer is not a result of chassis behaviour or characteristics but of deliberate driver induced instability and is of very little use for quick road driving. Ditto inducing oversteer in our gloved BRZ. That's just poor driving to be honest.

Unless there's too much power for the drive wheels to put down onto the road fwd will always be quicker.

Only when the engine torque significantly overwhelms the drive wheel traction will rwd be quicker.

There is a myth that rwd is "better" but it just isn't.

The only real advantage rwd has in a low powered car is driving feel.

The oversteer you get in the BRZ actually slows the car down significantly. Better tires are the answer to get what little power there is down onto the road and driving the car forwards. Sideways may be exciting but it is very slow.
Holy shit man you need to be wearing a helmet at all times if that's what you think. So a rally car would be faster if it understeered, oversteer is used to rotate the car rather than it plowing straight into a tree.

bkblitzed 10-23-2013 06:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatoni (Post 1288917)
how does making something more safe make that same thing more dangerous?
For the more experienced drivers, when you're oversteering you still have control of the car, but when you're under steering you lose some of the control

fatoni 10-23-2013 06:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bkblitzed (Post 1288977)
For the more experienced drivers, when you're oversteering you still have control of the car, but when you're under steering you lose some of the control
being experienced has nothing to do with a car being fast. also, that makes no sense at all. why are you losing control if you are understeering but maintain control when you are oversteering?

PR FR-S 10-23-2013 06:18 PM
Has nothing to do with the thread but i just realized that I've never owned a FWD car...

BRZ21 10-23-2013 06:34 PM
same.
93 suburban
97 mustang
13 brz

and I drifted all of them


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