Twin charged, Innovate on top and AVO on bottom
 

Twin charged, Innovate on top and AVO on bottom.
I have heard people mention the idea of twin charging and most reactions have been its way overkill. But I think if set up correctly it might be possible. There is no real way to know until someone try's it. And it might not be as efficient as the standard FI for the BIG dyno numbers.

So my theory is that the positive displacement of the innovate twin screw supercharger would help reduce the boost lag and help with the on/off throttle response while spooling the turbo until it takes over. The supercharger putting out 5-10 psi and the turbo putting out 5-15 or more. At low RPM's the supercharger does it's job in the lower RPM's while at the same time spooling the turbo. Once into the higher RPM's the turbo is most efficient at this point in making power. The super charger will go into a bypass state allowing the boost pressure to pass the twin screws without resistance until the boost pressure is lowered again. The twin screws would be free floating ( not creating pressure but still spinning) at the higher boost levels. This would allow the best of both worlds together. Great instant throttle response of the twin screw and the higher hp and torque output in the higher RPM's with the turbo.

What do you guys think? Is it possible?

I in no way support or like such useless idea but if you'd consider such setup look for a big turbo to actually help spool it up don't use the smallest available turbo kit

Everythings possible but something's are not worth it

My 1 cent

The sprintex supercharger has a max flow rate specified.. It's able to achieve this with the right size pulley. Adding a turbocharger won't really give you anything, unless you're able to by-pass the supercharger. This kind of diverting requires complex control to be any good.

The AVO kit gives very good low down performance anyway, so probably wouldn't be the best match for the twin screw.

Exactly the throttle response difference between the AVO and the Innovate can't be much, think of how much more timing is pulled with an innovate tune.

OP needs to look at an LS1 swap for what he is trying to accomplish.

Could you not just pump 15 psi out of the innovate unit? I know they only sell a 7 and 10psi pulley or something, but custom pulleys can be made for both the charger and the crank wich would be way easier/cheaper then making a twin charged system work properly. I do forget what the limit of the innovate chager is tho.

Instead you would want to go to the next bigger displacement sprintex, its right in its efficiency zone at 7-10 psi. Just like Vortec under estimated the volumetric efficiency of the FA20 and had to go to the next size up centri., the innovate is also on the small size, but fine for what it is (+50 hp.)

The op is really off wall. It sounds like what he wants is some 500 hp monster. Just makes much more sense to swap in an LS1 or buy a camero.

Brett Middleton with MRT is already doing the kit. Check his YouTube @Brett middleton

He's turning down the boost of the sprintex dramatically and still using the sprintex intercooler.

So not a 500 hp monster, but interesting for a tuner challenge.

Look up compound charging, the same theory applies.

Turning the boost down?
Also, any sane person would use two intercoolers as provided by the two kits, not one.
Fueling would be the bigger issue.

Yes the he custom lathed a huge pulley for the sprintex. It looks like more of a P.R. project than something commercially viable or practical.

Mass flow is mass flow.

http://www.roh.com.au/toyota-86-project.php

That car looks great in person and the owner is a nice guy. He designed a new set of rims for his build, looks like 18x8+37.

221Hp for >$10k :iono:

So what happens when a high pressure, cooled mass of air hits another compressor?

Fueling would be the limiting factor here.
Engine internal is another but could be negated via higher octane fuel source.
You are also not looking at outright HP in shoot out mode for a twincharge setup on a stock engine.
The largest benefit would be area under the curve, build for higher torque through out the entire rev range.

It compresses it further. That doesn't change the difference between air mass and air volume. Do you know the difference? If a given object chokes at a given air mass, further compressing the air isn't going to help that.

I'm no expect on fluid dynamics, though, but i'm sure someone can chime in to talk about the friction aspect of it.

It's sponsored by a lot of aussie companies, sprintex/avo etc no idea how much its costs.

if you're going to do something like that, you'd want to use a lot bigger turbo than that which comes with the avo kit.

We have good quality pump here. 98 RON and e85 (~82%). Personally I think with a small turbo, all the effort would have negligible effect but let's wait and see.

Well its going to cost more than an Avo + Sprintex. Basically a $10k+ engine with the performance of a diesel, its a tuner competition for P.R. Nothing wrong with Aussie gearheaded fanatical compeiton but that's all it is.

The fact that they aren't flow matching the two compressors says everything.

Yeap, united is pretty good.
Sure the turbo could be much bigger, I would do the same thing though if I was going to fatten the area even further, not otherwise possible with both kits on their own..
Then again, I couldn't careless about peak HP but instead, how the engine makes power everywhere else.

Id rather pick one kit

And use the money id spend on the other kit and fabrication and build the motor.

Indeed. The AVO turbo is much to small for a twin-charged setup.

Fair enough, you would most likely need a pretty aggressive stroker kit to match the twinscrew. I would rather not deal with messing up the bore vs stroke ratio though.

I feel like anti lag with a turbo or a bigger posi displacement supercharger(since ours is at its limit apparently) would be a better option. our high comp motors cant really eat the boost #'s that twin charging is good for, its a waste of money to develop a true twin charger system just for a couple more psi. Now if you dropped to some low compression pistons and pushed 10 out of the super and 20+ out of the turbo itd be a reasonable investment....but thats just my opinion.

I got the idea from working on the newer twin turbo diesel truck engines and the older 8v92 2 stroke 8v twin charged engines.
Here's an article I found

http://www.autozine.org/technical_sc...duction_5.html

Look up 4agzte, hks also had a twin charge kit 20 years ago.
I also have a 4agze in the AW11 and have been looking at trying this too.

A twincharge system on this car would be great, but personally, I'd use a roots type s/c instead of a twin screw. There's no internal compression as it just compresses air against the intake manifold. then pair that with a fairly enormous turbo, one that would probably never see enough flow from the motor in its stock form. Use the s/c for the low end and to increase flow so the turbo can spool. Fueling upgrades would be required unless the stock system can handle the amount of air flow generated. The hardest part would be getting the motor to handle the increase in air pressure. at that point I think you'd have to do low comp pistons as you'd be shooting for a 25-35psi output from the turbo, after the intercooler and going through the S/C.

If anything, maybe do a "twin turbo" sequential setup using an electric turbo feeding something like a gt35.

Use the electric turbo to provide boost from 2k-5k and the gt35 for an amazing kick the ass from 5k-redline. I wonder who would want to tune something like that? :lol: Wouldn't be much different using a hit of nitrous to spool a big snail. That's been done for drag cars.

Guys. As I'm sure Nix may already know I am currently neck deep in my twin charged twin intercooled system. The turbo I am using (made 354rwkw) is a Gtx3076r modified by blouche and got me the highest hp 86 in Australia title. I am running a PERRIN barrel cooler between the turbo and the sc as I already have cooled water from the sprintex intercooler system. The supercharger will be set at a stable 9psi and will be fed another 14psi from the turbo compounding the boost. This is on a fully built Fa20 with 10.1:1 comp. It should make a little over 400rwkw and minimal lag.

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That's supposed to say PWR barrel cooler not Perrin obviously lol....

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That is awesome! Do you have any pictures or videos? How's the off / on throttle response? Does it feel torque monster or a boost bomb?

This would be the mother of all FA20 builds but with one of these and a serious fuel system I would say go for it!

http://www.crawfordperformance.com/w...-Assembled.jpg

Seriously people on this forum here need to lighten up. If you have the $20-$30k to put into such a monster build and you made it work we would worship you... :bow:

http://sd.keepcalm-o-matic.co.uk/i/k...e-before-2.png

This has been happening on Mustang Cobras for a couple years now. Cool idea. I know the cobras are putting down good numbers with it. Interested in seeing numbers on an 86

This is the turbo setup I built. 473.8hp. Currently installing the sc as we speak.

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why twin charge you say? because racecar. or because this --->[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmscSzFurwg"]The World's Fastest Lotus? - /TUNED - YouTube[/ame]

You don't get it. The supercharger flows a specific amount of air per revolution, yes, but the limit there is the amount of air available to the supercharger at the induction point. If you push more air into the supercharger's inlet, you are going to be moving more air at the outlet also.

A roots unit would be better for compound charging, but the twin screw isn't as much of a limitation as you're implying.

To the OP: You need a bigger turbo for a twin charged setup. A 300hp blower with a 300hp turbo is going to result in a 300hp max. Your example would result in an AVO turbo car that makes less power than other AVO cars. The turbo is the limiting factor, airflow wise, and the supercharger is going to be sucking up horsepower that other AVO cars aren't losing.

Yeah, I ignored his reply as he had no idea what he was on about.

I await your technical explanation with baited breath.