Any previous Miata owners out there?
 

Hey, just wondering how well the FRS/BRZ is in stock form compared to an older Miata that's been modified. Let's say coilovers, some 6ul's, performance tires, small turbo kit, rx8 injectors, megasquirt ecu, roll bar, and front FM sway bar.

That still puts the cost of an NA miata around 10k with such modifications if the parts are sourced carefully second hand. I know there's gotta be some previous Miata owners who can chime in on whether the FRS/BRZ was worth the upgrade in stock form. I'm sure that the chassis would be much stronger and better built but comes at a huge premium.

Yes, it will probably be more practical due to the cargo space available and the really tight space behind the front seats. I'm pretty short and know a ton of short people as well so I think it might be alright fitting people in the rear seats but would like to hear the opinion of some owners.

Compare how? On track or for daily driver status?

Stock FRS/BRZ vs. track modded NA/NB Miata? With a good driver, the miata will be faster on track than the stock FRS/BRZ (all stock). Start putting tires and suspensions mods on the twins and things start getting a little more interesting.

A turbo miata will absolutely kill an FRS/BRZ depending on power output, even with the FRS having suspension and tires. Granted, all of this is driver dependent.

For a car to do everything with (daily, track, autox, etc), the twins are the clear winners.

I just sold my lightly track prepped 94 miata last week. We're currently working on a K24 miata, which will no doubt beat even a mildly modded FRS around the tracks we run at here in the midwest.

So the twins would be much more practical for daily use due to the extra cargo room and fuel economy I'd assume.
Modding the FRS whatsoever also comes at a premium so I guess the better choice as a weekend/fun car would be the Miata.

How much work is the K24 swap? What drive train are you using? Why the K24 swap and not the LS1?

You can see the build thread here - http://www.k20a.org/forum/showthread...08#post1778708

Yes, the twins are much more practical, but also more expensive. If it's going to be an only car, it makes sense to have one of the twins. If for a fun car, miata all the way in my mind.

K24 swap should be easy. There will be kits available that let you do it in a weekend. We are currently using the miata trans and stock 4.3 torsen rear end.

K24 vs LS1? In our minds, the LS1 is a great swap, but not a great swap for a racecar. It simply makes too much power to be able to put down any good lap times, let alone be able to drive quickly for a 3-4 hour enduro event. We love the LS1 swap for street car, but no so much for our uses.

Comparing the FR-S to the two stock NB Miatas I owned, the FR-S is better handling. Modded I'm sure things might be different. Either way a guy can't go wrong.

Comparing my autocross times in RTR with my BRZ to the guys I used to run against in STS with my Miata that ran similar times to me when I ran STS, the autocross times are about the same. My Miata has AST coilovers, 15x7.5 wheels with 225 RS3s, intake, header, exhaust, weighed about 2020 lbs in STS trim, and put 110 whp down on the dyno. So basically I spent $27k on my BRZ to run the same times I was already running in my Miata.

Your talking about apples and antelopes.

I had a modified miata - setup for STR autocross. While the times may be similar, a modified miata and a stock BRZ behave and react fairly differently.

As far as DDing, I will take a BRZ 99% of the time. The 1% is for nice drives through the woods on sunny, warm days. That's when I'll opt for the miata. So I sold the miata.

Of course I am, but I was giving a direct response to the OP who was asking for comparisons between modified Miatas and a stock BRZ/FRS.

I was referring to the OP. :fistbump:

So comparing the two as far as overall experience goes, which one was more exciting to drive? I know the Miata always puts a smile on my face when I take it to it's limits.

More exciting? A turbo/modded miata. A stock twin is fun, but not nearly as exciting IMO.

I had a competitive CSP prepped Miata that I had for over 15 years and 170k miles. I just ran my first autox with the BRZ (no mods) last weekend and my times sucked. Don't get me wrong, I had a lot of fun but I was constantly shifting between being sideways and understeering around the course. The stock Michelin's have got to go. For a daily driver I'm much happier with the BRZ. I like the larger cabin, the padded storage bin behind the front seats that folds down to accommodate two sets of golf clubs or a pop-up, chairs and a cooler for a track day, and a IMO better styling inside and out.

My only experience with a miata was a 1.8L swapped turbo NA that made about 275whp. Needless to say that thing was a lot faster than my FR-S, however I can say that overall I think the FR-S is the more "fun" car for me.

The FR-S is such an easy car to drive its handling predictable and forgiving when driven over the edge. The miata on the other hand was twitchy, had to be very careful with the throttle, if you weren't completely straight when that power kicked you would quickly find yourself doing circles. The FR-S is much more forgiving and is easy to recover when the rear end walks out on you.

Assuming a non-turboed NA miata, I'd take the FR-S over a miata any day for daily driving or dual purpose.

For a dedicated track or autocross car id take the miata though. Lots of parts available, relatively cheap, proven platform. My only gripe would be the lack of power, but if you are looking for high horsepower the twins aren't exactly the best option either. From a simple cost vs speed perspective the miata definitely wins.

i think a big issue is that the frs has a roof. with the miata, you need a rollbar. a rollbar means you need a harness and a harness means you need a racing seat. those things take so much of the daily drivability out of the car. having a fixed roof is the reason i would be making the switch.

Had an NC miata with retactable hardtop. Wanted to start tracking it but couldn't fit a roll cage and still pass the broom stick test. NC had full suspension setup, not coilovers. Handling was very predictable compared to the FRS. But FRS is much more comfortable and a better daily driver.

Also had a NA, interior space is way better than the NC believe it or not, especially for the passenger. Cost will be far less to make a trackable NA, even an NB compared to the cost of a FRS. IMOP stock miata suspension is the first thing to change out. FRS you can leave stock.

Also had an AP2 s2000. Powerwise way better than the miata, more comfortable too, but handling is less predictable than the miatas, handles more like the FRS.

Well, I went from a mildly modded '94 Miata to the FR-S. Although I loved the Miata, I don't regret going to the FR-S at all. The only thing I really miss is cruising through the city (of SF) with the top down.

Racing Beat intake, Koni/Koni suspension, Hard Dog Hard Bar, 15x7 Panasports with 205/50/15 Kumho XS, and some little trinkets (Hella headlights, Momo wheel, etc). That car was an absolute blast to drive on and off the track.

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The FR-S is faster in a straight line and has much more interior and cargo space, but it still gets better fuel mileage. It's more refined on the highway and the stock seating position is much more comfortable. Overall it's a better commuter/street car--but that's almost entirely because it's just newer.

But is it more fun? Hard to say. The Miata is certainly a more raw and visceral driving experience---you're hauling around ~500 lbs less, there's no top (or a really flimsy one), and the steering is more communicative. But the FR-S is also very 'playful'--the very reason I bought one is because it's one of the Top 5 best handling cars I've personally driven (the MP4-12C, 987 Boxster, 997 911 and NA Miata round out that list).

I don't understand why people buy an old car to daily drive and save the FR-S for the weekend. The FR-S is modern and posh; it's a great car to drive to work every day, and even better if you get to hit up a few twisties along the way. For the weekend, I'd like to have a rawer and older car, like a Miata, CRX, or E30. But if it comes down to only picking ONE car, for commute and for weekend, for traffic jams and cone carving, the choice is easy for me: FR-S.

My thoughts as well, just worded better.

Yep, these are two big reasons I'm in an FR-S right now. If you're going to bring your DD car to the track, these are things to think about.

Haha the 275whp turbo kit on the Miata is the 600 lbs Gorilla in that comparison. At least from my experience, the rear end on the FR-S is more prone to kick around than on a stock NA Miata.

Sounds like a pretty big turbo to be cranking out 275whp. I think 240-250whp on a Miata is pretty ideal as long as the rear tires are switched out with stickier and wider ones. This can be achieved by doing some fender rolling but others have opted for cutting the fender well and putting on fender flares. Also, many people chose the supercharger route so that the power output is more even but reaches it's peak much faster.

I think a main reason why people take their FRS out only on weekends is because it's newer. They wouldn't want to increase the amount of door dings they could accumulate in a crowded parking lot at work or get paint chips when they reach the freeway.

I can see how that changes the overall experience! However, most miata owners opt for the hardtop which usually costs anywhere from 30-100% of what their Miata is worth. It's definitely worth it as it'll make the car's chassis more rigid, reduce cabin sound, increase visibility (compared to the soft-top), increase security (with top locks), increase safety (when you happen to flip over) and it just looks much better than the soft top.

I also know a ton of Miata people without a harness or racing seat. The factory seat is uncomfortable though so most Miata owners opt for the bucket seats. The nice thing about the roll bar or roll cage is that it doesn't change your vehicle's practicality. On other vehicles, you would need to sacrifice the ability to have 3 seats available in the back when you get that roll cage, however, with the Miata, that roll bar increases the chassis's rigidness without being too unpractical.

hardtops dont do anything for the structural integrity and little to the safety of the car but it does help with the noise, security and visibility. for a street car i wouldnt change the seat, belts and add a bar but for the track you will likely have to to pass the tech inspection. since this is in the track section i would imagine thats a serious consideration. miatas just dont make for good dual purpose cars.

Former Miata owner here; had a 1990 NA chasis with a 99 engine that I raced in SCCA Super Touring Light. engine was stock, only mods were really suspension (koni yellows/fm springs, sway bars), open exhaust and R-comp tires (NT-01).

Right now the only mods my BRZ has are Hawk DTC-60 pads with Motul fluid and brake cooling, so with just light brake mods, still on stock tires, I'm 3 seconds slower at Sebring than my Miata race car. (2:45 in Miata, 2:48 in BRZ), and I've only driven the BRZ there once. Hoping to match my 2:45 time with the current setup in the BRZ with more seat time.

Miata 2:45 lap:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sw1TZBleLDs"]Sebring 2:45 Lap in a Miata - YouTube[/ame]


BRZ 2:48 lap:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiOCbmZ3u2E"]Stock BRZ at Sebring - 2:48 Lap - YouTube[/ame]

I've never raced a Miata but I have raced against many. From what I see they are so similar in lap times. Here is me in my oem power FRS with full interior (junk out of trunk) brakes and tires vs. a 140 hp Miata at 2200 lbs.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYTqLQdfwdo&feature=player_embedded#"]Element Tuning FRS/BRZ Cat-Back Delete Summit Point 6-2012 - YouTube[/ame]

Now fast forward to my FRS at Road Atlanta, still full interior (junk out of trunk), +15 hp, brakes, custom BC suspension, and Hankook RS3s I ran a 1:43 which is right there with Spec Miata.

When the mod level extends to turbo and downforce, sorry but the Miata has no chance angainst a car setup like our time attack FRS. With only 320 whp we are setting Grand AM GS pole lap times. I think the bigger chassis and ability to fit wider tires is why the FRS has more potential.

Both appear to be great track cars and I would not pick one vs the other based on lap times since they are so close.

Thanks,
Phil Grabow

The beauty of the miata is it's simplicity and super cheap aftermarket parts that are widespread.

If you're wanting to go fast on a budget, go miata. If you're looking for a fun car to daily drive and track, go for the FRS. Keep in mind typical car payments are about the same as the cost of entry for a track day...every month.

I owned and loved my 95 Miata R-pkg back in the day. Last time I drove it was back in '99. Drove an xterra and my bike between then and April this year when I purchased my FR-S. so this is not exactly a back-to-back comparo. IMO my MX-5, as I remember it, handled much better than my current FR-S. Even with all it's rattles and shimmies it was also much more fun to drive. I timed myself on this short back road close to where I live both on the roadster and my current car I was able to go faster easily on the miata than the FR-S. although I have since beat my best time on the miata with the FR-S. the miata feels much "tighter" than the loose-ish FR-S, more direct and connected feeling.

Man... I miss that car... Haha On the plus side for the twins is that it is a much more comfortable ride and much prettier in my opinion.

I have a NB Miata with Eibach pro kits, Bilsteins and sway bars and a stock BRZ. Lap times are the same in both cars but the BRZ gets better gas mileage, is easier to drive and more comfortable.

Twins drink premium so the gas mileage is a wash. The cost of ownership win goes to the Miata as so many of them have been built parts costs are much lower and the engines are proven. Over the course of 200k miles the Miata will be much cheaper to own and race.

The 86 gets compared to the Miata but they don't have much in common at all, the FRS is much more like a classic GT coupe (before GT coupes all became heavy weights). I've owned/raced a lot of cars over the years and the car the Toyobaru drives most similar to were my 80's 3 and 6 series BMW's. Doesn't feel at all like a light double wishbone roadster. The twins carry a lot more weight and rigidity compared to the na/nb miatas.

Holy cow look at the difference in chassis flex on the videos posted in this thread.

I had a 1991 NA6 Miata that I found, restored and then modified (chassis bracing, coilovers, header back exhaust, weight savings). Aimed for a mix of style & functionality.

On track it drove fantastic and was extremely fun, consistent and reliable but the GT86 with just tires, coilovers, basic brake upgrades and an alignment is simply faster, equally reliable and more practical while being almost as fun to drive.

I loved my Miata to death (lots of sweat & blood in that car) and always wanted to swap in a 1.8 motor with a turbo, CF hardtop, Tubular arms, bigger tires & better brakes. Would have been in a whole other class power to weight wise but I'm much happier with the GT86 overall.





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