Manual tranny takes another step into oblivion
 

When the new 2012 Chevrolet Camaro ZL1 arrives this spring, performance car enthusiasts will experience the hands-on driving satisfaction of a “stick” with the ease of an automatic transmission due to General Motors’ newly improved TapShift technology.

Since its introduction several years ago, TapShift has allowed drivers to control up- and down-shifts with paddle shifters. For 2012, GM powertrain engineers implemented a patent-pending software algorithm that improves tap response time by up to 60 percent compared to the previous system. No hardware changes were required for the upgrade.

“The faster you can get to the next gear, the better, and from the sound of it, the ZL1 automatic’s performance is going to make paddle shifting more exhilarating and satisfying for drivers of all skill sets,” said Eric Fedewa , director of Global Powertrain Forecasting at IHS Automotive. “We’re seeing a trend toward more manual-mode-capable, fun-to-drive automatic transmissions across all vehicle segments, and GM’s technology is leading the pack.”

The 2012 ZL1’s six-speed automatic transmission delivers a 0-60 time of 3.9 seconds – a tenth of a second faster than the manual transmission time.

By staging hydraulic pressure in the clutch for the next gear, the new control module algorithm reduces tap delay for the 1-2, 2-3, 3-4, and 4-5 up-shifts by 200-300 milliseconds. The system anticipates shift requests based on current gear, throttle, torque and speed. By pre-filling the clutch for the next gear, the tap up-shift response is near instantaneous.

“As great as the previous system’s performance was, we were driven to achieve even better results,” said Gabe Gibson, GM performance car calibration engineer. “Not only did we make the upgrade to Camaro, we implemented it on the 2012 Corvette as well, and will use it on all vehicles with TapShift control going forward.”

Staged up-shifts will help drivers of the 2012 ZL1 – the most powerful production Camaro ever – get the most out of its supercharged 6.2L engine that is SAE-rated at 580 horsepower (432 kW) and 556 lb.-ft. of torque (754 Nm).

ZL1 customers’ choice of an automatic 6L90 transmission with TapShift manual mode or a six-speed manual transmission is unmatched in its class. With 0 to 60 taking 3.9 seconds, and a top speed of 184 mph, the power and acceleration of the ZL1 automatic rivals many supercars.

“We think Camaro drivers will really appreciate the performance improvement offered by staged up-shifts, whether they’re merging onto the freeway or putting their ZL1 through its paces at the track,” Gibson said.

The Camaro ZL1 Coupe will go on sale this spring as a 2012 model. The Camaro ZL1 Convertible will go on sale this summer as a 2013 model. Chevrolet expects the automatic transmission to command up to 50 percent of ZL1 sales.

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So manufacturers find yet another way to improve the conventional torque converter AT. and it's all software too. combine this with the IS-F hardware, and the Sky-Activ "small torque converter/early lockup" philosophy, and there is no way the manual tranny survives the next decade or two. heck even DCT gearbox usage will have to be re-evaluated in the non-supercar segments (VAG cars notwithstanding as they are "all in" with their DSG). look at the veloster turbo. it uses the AT instead of the DCT likely because the DCT cant handle the torque... look at the ford powershift DCT, cutting corners = bad software = crappy DCT performance...

manual trans are cheaper, so will never go into oblivion i dont think - untill electric cars are mainstream at least

doesnt matter if it's cheaper. if nobody buys them, then eventually the manufacturers wont even bother to offer them. this has been true for north america for a while now. in europe, MT is still the tranny of choice, but year after year AT/DCT/CVT takes more and more market share. in asia, AT/CVT use is growing fast. in third world countries, MT rules because it's cheap.

as for sporty cars, once the 911 GT3 becomes PDK only, you will then know, that you have heard the death knell of the MT, forever...

on to another point related to the original post. one area that has been ardently MT preferred is the american muscle/pony/sportscar... ZR1, GT500, Viper, etc were all MT only. that is until now. the top spec ZL1 with a good AT tranny? GM may expect a 50% take rate, but i personally feel it will be way more than that. no doubt if i am right, the camaro, which already outsells the mustang, will edge even farther ahead. this will force ford to come up with their own AT to reach parity. likewise, the Tapshift upgrades are also on the 2012 vettes, and just may find their way into the top spec models like the ZR1 and whatever the next gen vette offers. once that happens, i again suspect that the take rate will soon surpass the MT. at that point, the american manufacturers will have already adopted the mindset that performance AT's are necessary to compete. then cars like the Viper, may very well come out with a fancy DCT/AMT in the future. and all this IMO stems from the "bold" decision from GM to give the ZL1 an AT tranny that's worth a damn... it will start a ripple effect. it will get american cars acclimated to performance AT's and they wont look back. high tech drivetrains (DCT, torque vectoring, active diff, etc) have never been a priority for american sportscars. i believe the AT ZL1 is the first step that they soon WILL adopt this tech and this philosophy...

That 6L80 and 6L90 have been around for quite a while. All they did was update the tune and add a shit ton more cooling because that's a big heavy trans that runs very hot when you put that much power through one. I've driven Tahoes, Corvettes, and Silverados with that trans. It's a fine transmission if you must have an automatic. However, this new tune is nothing to write home about. All of the GM tuners have been doing this since the 6L transmissions came out in 08. It's easy when the transmission settings are right there in the BCM and the BCMs are unlocked and easy to tune. Essentially all they're doing is bumping the line pressure the car shifts faster and harder (and hammers the clutch packs), which is what GM decided to do as well here.

Plus, the ZL1 isn't a raw sports car. It's a Muscle Car. Muscle Cars have always come in automatic. Because drag racing. Essentially, what you're getting is a downmarket CTS-V coupe.

The 6L90 is 240lbs. The TR6060 is 130lbs and more fun to drive. I know where my money would go.

yes. but the significance is the fact that they are doing this from the factory to begin with. it represents a first step towards performance automatics. yes the ZL1 is a musclecar, but is it that big of a stretch that the ZR1 may see an auto in the very near future? perhaps because of the AT ZL1's success? and is it a stretch to see the GT500 get an auto to compete? and the BOSS 302? and the Viper to compete with the ZR1 or next gen Vette? the ZL1 getting a good auto is significant imo, because everything i said above is not that far fetched if you consider MT's account for less than 10% of sales...

What they should keep manuals for is for testing for your license. No manual ability, no license. If you can't operate a damn manual (due to laziness rather than disability) how the hell can you operate the whole rest of the car? God, how much better the roads would be...

:word: Almost got clipped on 3 occasions today. People are way too distracted when driving these days.:mad0259:

Do you actually believe the nonsense you spout?

I agree with him 100%. If you can't operate a manual transmission you should not be allowed to drive. Learning on a manual transmission gives an overall better understanding of the vehicle and teaches a driver to pay attention all the time.

And if you're so uncoordinated that you can't learn to use one, you've got no business driving a car.

I agree too, getting a license is way too easy in this country and being unable to operate a clutch should not be an option. You can drive your lazy ass appliance car if you want but prove that you can drive first.

as if people in europe, in their MT cars, dont check their text messages and crash? you guys act as if driving manual is some special ability that only the "good drivers" posess. people drive manual all over the world, and they crash and die all over the world as well. the problem is PEOPLE, not the car... :mad0259:

The image below shows the location of 2,396,750 road crashes in Great Britain from 1999 to 2010. Each light point is an individual collision which resulted in a casualty. The intensity of brightness shows where collisions are more frequent.
http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/news/specia...ll_crashes.gif

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-15975724

So your image is telling me that more accidents happen in densely populated areas where there are more vehicles on the road.....


My insurance company seems to agree. They charge noticably less for the manual transmission version of cars. *shrug*

Learning on a manual transmission requires more effort and acts as a forcing function for understanding certain things about vehicle dynamics. Also, I don't think I've ever heard of a driver of a manual transmission car "hitting the wrong pedal" and driving through a storefront. Since, you know, even if they miss the pedal, they're still pressing the clutch and so it'll just rev the engine.

The simple fact is learning to drive a manual transmission takes longer and if somebody can't learn to do that, then they shouldn't be behind the wheel. In a manual, you're always doing more than one thing at once. In an auto, drivers are more likely to be using their free hand for something distracting. If you deny people who cannot drive a manual transmission a license, then you are taking at least some of the people off the road who are just not suited to a complex task that has the potential to kill people.

The habits you learn while becoming proficient with a manual transmission stay with you, even after you're reached the point where shifting is an automatic thing that you don't need to think about. Things like using engine braking, managing your speed, paying closer attention to what is happening in front of you, thinking ahead on passing, merging, etc.

Anyways, the simple fact is I strongly believe that if you are not coordinated enough to learn to drive a manual transmission, you're not coordinated enough to drive a vehicle. Taking those people out of cars is not going to eliminate accidents....it'd probably make a small impact though, especially for the really vapid people who just run into shit and can't even park.

I think that's fair. I also happen to believe that all drivers should be required to take a short performance driving course because it teaches important concepts that are applicable during an emergency maneuver and gives them a safe venue in which to experience what it feels like when a vehicle is losing control. Reducing or controlling panic reactions during an emergency maneuver would strongly benefit many drivers.

Basically, I think Germany has it exactly right. If that means that it costs $1000 dollars to recieve your initial license, I am more than willing to pay that, and when I have kids, I would be more than willing to pay it. Giving anybody a license as long as they can pass a paper test is as idiotic as allowing anybody to purchase a gun or go hunting without proper training on weapons safety, cleaning, etc.

Everyone sort of seems to be ignoring this post. Maybe because heel toe isn't something people usually do on a daily basis. What just about anyone with a manual does do a daily basis is shift ahead of turns, use their engine to slow them down instead of just braking, and skips gears. These simple behaviors make even good semi-autos with flappy paddles or whatever seem annoying to me. I'm either counting taps trying to get into the right gear or bumping readline when I down shift going into a corner, or find myself relying on the brakes way more.

If you're drag racing maybe a good auto might be better just because shift time is all that matters. If you're actually driving a car no amount of shifting speed is going to make up for the fact that the car can only base gear choice on some basic information.

Yeah absolutely! Hell, I practice heel/toeing on the road all the time. If I'm in traffic I'll just clutch in and downshift without braking, and ease the clutch back and engine brake, but if I'm driving around, especially somewhere remote, I heel/toe before corners. It's just a good way to practice.

The worst thing about automatics is that even the performance ones, with good programming, aren't good at holding a gear at high RPM and part-throttle. The most common time that somebody would want to remain at high RPM and part throttle is around a corner....the absolute worst time to inadvertently shift gears.

Yes. The ZR1 is a sports car. The blower is heavy enough and way out front. They don't want to add another hundred pounds of transmission to the back of the car.

And the Boss 302 is almost a pure track car. Ask any Boss 302 owner that actually tracks their cars. They neither want or need an automatic. I've driven one, and I've driven a regular GT Brembo. The Boss 302 would not feel right with a torque converter automatic. And clutchpack/planetary automatics really don't like being spun up to 7500. The IS-F runs a corporate 8-speed transmission developed for a 70k car, and redlines at 6800. Ford is not going to dump the money to develop that transmission. This argument applies below as well.

Plus, Ford isn't going to put an automatic in it because if you want a 420hp Mustang with an automatic, buy a GT Brembo. They could put one in the GT500, but I can tell you that that transmission is going to be expensive. It has to handle 600lbs/ft of torque, spin up to at least 190mph, be able to take some hard abuse and not overheat. And they have to be willing to warranty that transmission, so its in their best interest to overbuild it to keep from having to pay out big warranty claims.

I heel-toed every day I drove stick. And I do now whenever I find myself in a stick car. That's where the fun in driving a stick car lies for me. However, it wasn't ever for engine braking. It was to be in the sweet spot of the powerband to come out of the corner.

In their defense, the IS-F automatic uses the torque converter like a clutch. When you've commanded a gear, it will hold that gear (unless you slow down too much, then the trans will downshift to keep from stalling). I drove an IS-F around a road course. It held gears at very high rpm when I was using the paddles. Never wanted to upshift. This is, supposedly, the same trans tune that is going into the FR-S/BRZ (with a 6spd version of that trans).

You'd think, since they are designing Camaros and this "TapShift" stuff, that they would have the means to not film with a bloody potato.


I can't take it seriously.

I actually heel toe on a daily basis =/.

no, it was to illustrate that there are still a shit ton of accidents and deaths despite the supposed notion that "MT drivers are more attentive".

that doesnt mean anything. it could just be that MT is cheaper to replace. using insurance rates as a metric for safety is useless.

in theory. but are there any statistics to prove this point? who's to say i cant use my free hand IN BETWEEN SHIFTS in a MT??? how long does it take to get distracted and crash? split second? MT driver cant get distracted between shifts?

i see your point, and on some level i agree, but lets be honest. driving MT isnt some super hard skill that takes all your concentration to do. people can get distracted just as easily. it's about the PEOPLE, not the machine. forcing people to learn MT may prevent the worst of the worst from driving, but that aint saying much... the real problem is the entitlement americans feel about driving. that it's their right to do so, not a privilege. i whole heartedly agree that it should be harder to get a license, but the notion that MT forces you to be a better driver, or that only good drivers can drive MT, is beyond flawed...

if it makes them a ton of money, they'll do it. and im not talking about just AT. im talking about the ZL1 AT being a stepping stone for better automatics, including DCTs and AMTs, in the future.

madfast, why you so mad? What do you have against MT?

LOL i dont have anything against MT. i love driving MT as much as the next guy, but i do have a problem with people who are anti-AT. most of them are just plain ignorant, and follow the immature enthusiast sentiment that you are not a true enthusiast if you dont drive stick. now dont get me wrong im not saying that's the case in this thread, but in general that sentiment is rife and abundant in the automotive world...

with this thread specifically, i was just reporting that continued development of the AT really will kill off the MT in the near future. just like people who ride horses as a means of transportation, mostly they do it for fun. just like people who jet their own carbs, they do it for fun. and in the future, people will drive MT, for fun...

He doesn't have anything against manuals IMO. He comes off to me as somebody who is open minded vs the manual or die crowd. Why is it that automatic drivers are lazy? I guarantee you a lot of the CEO's and hard working people drive automatics. I think the real question is why the manual-only crowd is so fucking mad?

Well said!!!!!

There is a notion of I "need" an automatic. It's terrible.

There are people that actually do need one, the really hard working people... say the ones that lost their limbs fighting for their country, or born with a similar and very unfortunate case.

The biggest is the city or traffic "need". If I can take my car around the city or slow moving highway then a similar perfectly well functioning human being could too. Similar story with "hills", (I live on a 22% grade), and with "I haven't learned how" (I started driving on a 3-speed auto). Those are excuses for "need".

If you say that you "want" an automatic then it's a bit of a different story. That's where I believe the Automatic=Lazy attitude spans from.

(In all honesty I do mean this in a light [somewhat joking] sense of a post before people go all haywire on me, don't take it too seriously)

http://blogs.insideline.com/roadtest...477-114323.jpg
http://blogs.insideline.com/roadtest...477-114331.jpg

http://blogs.insideline.com/roadtest...utomatics.html

for all you MT enthusiasts out there, god bless you if you can stand this everyday... :bow:

i understand your post was semi in jest, but alas there are people out there who think like this for real...

If I did, would that shoot me to driving god status?;);)

Hell I would just walk, It's faster then any car at that speed.

I understand where you are coming from 100%. My reason for not being a manual only person isn't because I am lazy. It's because I hate the clutch with a passion. If manuals never had clutches my car would be a manual right now. I still love to shift and that's why I like Sporty Autos/DCT transmissions. My auto rarely stays in auto mode so I am putting effort towards having some form of control and fun in my car. Unfortunately my auto isn't geared sporty enough and doesn't have the torque converter lock-up feature so I know the FR-S tranny will be amazing since I like mines a little bit.

Japan has 2 different licenses for cars. AT only and MT/AT

for grip racing not much can beat a paddle shift auto/dual clutch system

for fun you buy a MT

for ultra fun, a straight cut sequential manual

Guys... don't worry they still have Horses, I'm sure they'll still have manual cars.

EXACTLY. I got to drive an is250 for a bit and it would always fcuking shift up mid corner :mad0260:

^lol what i was thinking

Most only "need" an automatic so they can chat on the phone their whole way home from wherever :paddle:

HOLY SH!T sequentials are the best

My r6 was the first sequential shift vehicle I'd ever owned and that thing TORE through the gears like no other, you really don't even need to use the clutch, just lightly blip OFF the throttle for 1/10 a second and it slips right up.

it was like 1st gear: 0-75mph BAM 2nd gear BAM, so on up to 167 lol :burnrubber:

nothing more intense than doing that in a full tuck and seeing the shift light going crazy 2 inches from your face as your front end begs to come up

I digress..

Manual cars are like pump-action shotguns. Yeah, a Browning A5 is going to do it faster, but not everyone wants an autoloader. Pump guns are reliable and easy to maintain.

IS250? you base your opinion on that crappy AT programming? do yourself a favor and drive an IS-F before you come to a conclusion that AT cant be done well...

That's a $60k car though.

Maybe try the Miata or RX-8 with 6spd auto. Those are supposed to be good. :iono:

yes, but the difference isnt made in the transmission. the only meaningful hardware upgrade in the IS-F seems to be newly developed solenoids. and i remember reading somewhere that the FR-S will use a cheaper version of those solenoids.

the miata and rx-8 AT dont have anything special about it besides being a solid 6 speed with paddle shifters. for a lower cost taste of a well done AT, look at the nissan/infiniti 7 speed in the 370Z/G37. when the FR-S/BRZ comes out, it will have one of the best AT's at perhaps the lowest price point in the market today...

THat would be an interesting new transmission. A 6-speed manual without a clutch and its not automatic. I would like that too. But I actually think the clutch is part of the fun

Yes.

People need more engagement with their cars so they have something to focus on. Distracted driving causes accidents.

However, we also need to train and test people more (in the US). When I got my license renewed, an elderly gentleman was ASSISTED into the building, and then PROMPTED though the eye test to get his license. He probably had no idea where we was. But he's licensed to drive a 2 ton vehicle at lethal speeds. Utter BS. As was mentioned before, I would GLADLY pay a lot more to renew my license if they would actually test people on their ability to drive.

I hope MT doesn't go away. Though I'd rather a paddle-shift for track driving, a MT is much more fun day-to-day.

I don't think the MT is going to die out. Performance cars are built for performance enthusiasts. And most performance enthusiasts prefer stick shift. Besides, when manufacturers started pricing the AT and MT transmissions the same it should have knelled the death of the MT, but it didn't.

^^^ You guys are living in a self-indulgent fantasy. No F1 cars and hardly any supercars have old school three pedal + clutch trannys any more. Other proper racing cars usually have a trans that is nothing like a regular MT.

Super cars follow the lead of F1 and sports cars follow the lead of super cars.

Get over it.

People chat on the phone, text while driving, etc. because the culture has gotten more and more dependent on constant streams of (trivial) communication. The presence of AT's has little to do with it.

You guys sound like cranks.

Okay, but do you prefer single action or double action revolvers?

Or, how about a machine gun?

Modern sporting AT's are faster and have equivalent drive train losses. Once you factor out arguments based on mechanical limitations with hard data, you are left with an argument based solely on qualia.

Some people prefer amps that utilize vacuum tubes too. That's fine, but no need to shit on my preference for newer tech.

You must've missed the point where I said:

And when I said:
Also, I don't think anyone has said that Autos are the sole reason for distracted driving.

Still trying to figure out how you think my post was self-indulgent fantasy.