Has anyone had a warranty claim denied? Seized engine! Pics of teardown added 6/5
 

Background info:

The CSG BRZ suffered from the injector seal failure that is frequently mentioned. Here are some threads regarding that.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36129
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showpos...73&postcount=5
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=VnFa2IvNs9g"]Frs popping noise when given throttle free revving or cruising, rolling on throttle to pass. - YouTube[/ame]
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showt...light=warranty
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showt...light=warranty

We were getting the misfire, but had no CEL until the was dead. The symptoms showed up in the following order:

- Misfire/popping
- Rough idle
- Unable to hold idle, misfiring on idle dip
- Siezed/dead engine (no holes in engine or anything...)

This is not the first time we've had the misfire/popping. We've actually had a full engine replacement last year when the original engine had the same initial symptom. At that time, we had taken the car in to Irvine Subaru; they were very accommodating of the unusual symptom on our car. This time around, Palm Springs Subaru (Desert Subaru?) was the closest dealer, and were told over the phone that we would need a CEL before we came in to avoid a diagnostic fee that would be need to paid out of pocket. They were unwilling to diagnose the symptom, even though it was thoroughly explained over the phone.

After the engine died, we had the car towed back to our original dealer, Irvine Subaru. They are, of course, at the mercy of the tech line, and per Subaru of America, they asked for a service record on our car, which was provided. They then proceeded to take off the oil pan per Subaru's instructions, and at that point, we were informed that there was "metal all over the place" and that the engine would not be warrantied due to track use.

Contact with Subaru of America was initiated, and the exchange was unfortunately unproductive. In short, they are denying us warranty coverage because the car was "used for racing".


At this point, I'd like to point out Subaru's marketing materials.

http://www.media.subaru.com/newsrele...id=190&mid=127

Here's an e-mail from the Subaru of America rep that our case was escalated to.

According to the marketing materials and press release, Subaru seems to imply that the car is designed for track days. We're certainly not RACING; the car doesn't meet the safety requirements form any sanctioned racing, and does not see that type of activity. Both the engine and all safety components are and always have been stock.

Is our car driven hard? Most certainly. Do we track it? Of course! Have we done anything to alter the parameters of the drivetrain? Absolutely not. We're using the car as designed, at least, according to their press materials.

Is this warranty coverage denial justified?



*edit*

Pics of a repair order on a FR-S that had the same problem

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b3...psea5139b5.png
[IMG]http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b395/nismo350z/Scion%20FRS/250396D5-7246-48AD-89FB-***E27D2B313-1032-00000132D6BCC474_zps686e4a0a.png[/IMG]

Pics of damaged Injectors/seals from another car

http://s17.postimg.org/499vmd9z3/IMG951327.jpg


Quick update.

Apparently our cats are both destroyed. Now what could cause that....? I'll be dropping by the dealer on Monday to get more pictures of the additional teardown. Someone else at Subaru of America (not Bill, the rep I was talking to) authorized more teardown.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y75...psbd86fe9c.jpg

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y75...pseb07eb02.jpg



*edit*

More damaged injectors from another car


http://file.arrowsdiary.blog.shinobi.jp/6b7aa800.png
http://file.arrowsdiary.blog.shinobi.jp/294e2f97.jpeg
http://file.arrowsdiary.blog.shinobi.jp/8121f497.jpeg
http://file.arrowsdiary.blog.shinobi.jp/1daa68c9.jpeg



*edit*

It seems one cat MELTED a bit (has a pretty good sized "dent" in it, but it's smooth), and the other cat is falling apart.

Pics from teardown


Engine from the bottom. Connecting rod on cyl 2 has seen some heat...
https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.n...18217898_n.jpg

Engine from the front
https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphot...97253005_n.jpg

Cylinders 2 and 4
https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.n...71549202_n.jpg

Damaged collar (next 3 photos are on the same "pair" of injectors)
https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.n...22112242_n.jpg

Collar completely gone and injector... scorched?
https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphot...16533320_n.jpg

Another angle
https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphot...85849728_n.jpg

Other two injectors. This one is a bit damaged as well
https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.n...60701917_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.n...95734796_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.n...08650112_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.n...12764538_n.jpg

Oil pan...
https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphot...80634745_n.jpg


*edit 8/22/13*

More problems in japan

http://minkara.carview.co.jp/en/user...blog/30522262/
(use google translate)

***DISCLAIMER: This post is in no way, shape, or form legal advice or counsel.

I figured a public discussion of some issues might be of some benefit to the members here.

CSG~

1) If the problem which ultimately caused your engine to seize is later found to be a design/manufacture defect or flaw, then your position is suddenly much stronger here (worth mentioning since Toyota has attempted to remedy certain issues with the FA20 via the latest tsb regarding engine software/calibration). The problem is proving the cause (Magnusson-Moss comes into play here) of the engine seizure with respect to any intervening/superceding factors such as your "spirited driving."

So was the cause of the engine failure your driving, the modified suspension and tire components, or the potential design/manufacture defect (factory tune, injector parts and functioning)? That is the major question here.

2) The fact that Subaru's press/marketing materials tout and encourage performance use of the BRZ (despite their somewhat contradictory warranty and user manual statements) is a potential avenue to be explored as well. In a sense, Subaru is marketing the product one way, and then refusing to honor a "reasonable" if not intended use of a sports coupe.

3) The fact that Subaru previously replaced your motor under warranty after similar driving conditions may come into play as well. Was this move an act of "good will" on behalf of Subaru, a waiver and acceptance of your spirited use of the vehicle, or was it an indirect concession that there are unresolved issues with the FA20?

4) As you said, another issue worth noting is that the drivetrain was stock. Now if you had an intake or aftermarket tune (which can cause a lean condition) then I can see Subaru's justification for denial of warranty coverage of the motor. In this case, the fact that the motor was stock (and I presume properly maintained) works in your favor.

***So what to do now...any combo of the three depending on your decision:

1) Seek counsel from an attorney who specializes in warranty/contract or automotive claims. Further investigation of the cause of the engine seizure will likely be necessary here and will involve considerable expense.

2) File a safety complaint with the NHTSA since having an engine seize during operation is a safety concern.

3) Spread word of this problem using the power of the internet (particularly Autoblog and Jalopnik).

Subaru refuses to authorize further teardown to investigate the ultimate cause of the failure. They've been asked several times, and refuse on the basis that the "vehicle was raced".

Good luck dude, this is a tough one.

Keep in mind as long as you own the car/motor, even though Subaru might refuse to authorize further teardown to investigate, you can.

Did you specifically tell them or did they do the research?

This is a very interesting thread. I feel badly for anyone affected by corporate greed, and by a car manufacturer not stepping up and doing the right thing. I had an 8 month old car turn into a fireball in a parking lot a few years ago. The engine wasn't even running. It took 2 years before the manufacturer admitted that there was a "problem" then sent out recall letters to over 230,000 owners telling them not to park their cars in their garages until they could have their vehicles inspected because they might catch fire.

I really hope that engine issue gets resolved. If it happened to one person, that is one too many as far as I am concerned. Look into getting a lawyer-- that is what I did. It is difficult to take on "the man" by yourself. Also send registered letters to head office, CEO, company president etc. When my car exploded, I also mentioned I would be showing up at random dealerships and standing on the sidewalk with poster sized pictures of my burn't car. Rattle some chains-- don't take no for an answer. From experience-- they are hiding behind a lame answer and refusing to step up to the plate because there may be implications (larger than we can see) regarding the longevity and performance of the engine. It's easier for them to say that it isn't their fault, then pass the blame onto you than admit a problem and issue a recall once it happens to a dozen or so other people.

I will be following this thread. Best of luck! :popcorn:

They did their own research, but we don't exactly hide it with our youtube videos, etc.

For example, try googling "mike kang brz"

What worries me is that it happened to him twice.

Has anyone else experienced this? What can we do to prevent this? Is it a common problem?

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showpos...73&postcount=5

The initial symptoms are widespread. see: http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36008

My FR-S apparently had sand in the engine block from the manufacturing process.. 7k mi later idle started dropping to 3k and i lost compression in one of the cylinders. Toyota reembursed my down payment. Hopefully i dont run into the same problem when i go to buy a new one after this deployment lol..

I put ten grand down. I hope there is sand in MY engine. :happyanim:

Going to be following this thread closely.

Good luck CSG Mike!

ps.. they tried to deny my claim, but after a month of arguments I had to deploy and left my father in charge of taking care of it. IDK what he did, but i got a $6k deposit back into my account. Apparently threats work wonders lol.

As a potential buyer and non-owner, I don't have access to the factory manual or warranty information. I see they quote a few times regarding "racing." I assume you have only been to HPDEs to this point and not actual competition events, per your description.

Your case may hinge on that, or it may be irrelevant semantics. If you don't already I would definitely get the full warranty information, as issued at the time of purchase, in writing.

It is also worth noting that they can market the car as being track-oriented and still explicitly refuse to warranty damage caused by track-driving / racing / etc.

Best of luck. These kinds of issues - and their resolutions - are what will dictate whether I pick up a 2014 or go with a different car all together.

This is why I am glad that I am waiting until at least model year 2014. I hope that there issues are addressed sooner than later for current owners.

*** Not legal advice disclaimer *** (please don't sue me)

If they are hinging on details and saying you were specifically denied warranty claims because they think you were "racing" then the term "racing" vs. tracking your car in an HPDE are two totally different things. Argue the difference and they may concede.

In general, they have promoted this car as a track capable car as you've mentioned so you can also claim you bought this car and relied on that information. It's like the lawsuit of the false MPG claims. There's usually a way to settle but it requires effort on your part.

Unfortunately, like with all lawsuits, it's all one big waste of time. Best of luck. Email me if you need any help.

The fact that there are references to track use in marketing materials - is a non-starter. No manufacturer will cover a heavily-tracked car if they know it was tracked, there usually something in the warranty statement these days. I'd pursue the injector seal story. Hire a lawyer first (or have a lawyer-friend send them something in lawyereese) and see if that gets you an investigation approved. If not - you gonna have to have your car towed to an independent store and have it inspected (and later repaired on your own dime cause otherwise the wait might be quite long) there. Document everything. I doubt Subaru will acknowledge the issue until enough non-tracked BRZs fail for the same reason, so it might drag on for a while.

I might bring my car in and complain about the symptoms you listed (popping sounds when starting, some fluctuating idle etc and my car hasn't seen track yet) so just Subaru gets more data on this. I also need to bug them about another HPFP and a new pass-side window switch.

So if I drive my car on the redline on the street and don't disable trac and I get this issue, will they claim I was racing and try to deny me?

Are they basing your racing use on the metal found or the online evidence. It seems they say the metal shavings mean you were racing but then reference other evidence.

+1
You could certainly argue that it wasn't racing, it was spirited driving around a closed course.

I took Reg Pridmore's "CLASS" motorcycle school 2 years ago at ORP. Over the 2 day event there were, i think, 3 "crashes"(one totaled bike, two just needed new plastics), all of them were totally covered by their insurance companies because it wasn't "racing", it was an instructed event with no winner and no prizes.

I know thats not apples to apples, but i think its worth noting how the wording on official documents can be interpreted in several different ways.

Either way, with a totally stock motor, you should be able to just about rev the nuts off it all day long and not have it seize.

Bad form Subaru, bad form.

These are e-mails #1 and #2 from Subaru. The e-mails in the OP are #3 and #4. I have posted these by request.

Good luck with this one, Kang. Sorry to hear shit keeps happening to you.

I had a similar issue with Suzuki and a pair of boat engines. Had to get a lawyer to get them to warranty the damage.

HPDE are not competition or racing events. The ones I attend are very specific about this. The main reason is for insurance purposes. No ordinary liability policy will cover a racing incident, but they do have to cover driver education events.

The warranty seems to track this same distinction. I don't know what type of events you were participating in, but if they involved wheel to wheel racing for prizes or awards, then you may have a problem getting warranty coverage. Likewise, you wouldn't have coverage,if you spun, hit the wall, and damaged your car, under your auto policy.

Good Luck.

This may be an educational experience for a lot of us here who do HPDE but no actual racing. I assumed that we were safe under the warranty.

Get your engine back and have it examined by an expert. See what the expert says about the cause of the failure. That will tell you whether you have a case or not. The explanations provided by Subaru are worthless. They give no specific reason for the failure. Get your engine back ASAP.

Is the FA20 really that weak? The first engine failure could have been a manufacturer defect, but two engines in a row?

If car is stock, why does it matter how it was driven?

If I buy a car with a 7k rpm redline, I'd expect it to operate at 7k all day long.

Get a lawyer man

Many insurance companies have exclusions these days for HPDE events. Now i'm getting curious how warranty words things and if it's similar to insurance policies. I have a feeling HPDE events will void warranty.

Both engines had identical symptoms. I personally know enough people that have experienced the same symptoms that I've lost count.

No wheel-to-wheel racing here, strictly track days. I don't have a racing license, and the car is not race prepped. In fact, it has a complete interior that's never been modified or gutted in any way. No roll cage, and I'm pretty sure any racing organization would look at the car and give us a "are you kidding?" look if we tried to show up and race with it.

Time to give up on the FA20 platform and stick to the FC20/FC22? :lol:

In the interest of full disclosure, this is what the car had at the time of failure:

- Coilovers (Tein SRC)
- Big Brake kit (AP Racing "Sprint")
- Rims and tires (WedsSport TC105N with 225/45/17 BFG Rivals)
- Axleback exhaust (just the muffler portion)

NO other mods on the car at any point on this car with the 2nd engine. No tune, no intakes, no reflash, no aftermarket seats, no audio system, nothing. Not even camber arms.



Also, since a lot of people assume I own the car.... I DO NOT OWN THE CAR. I simply have access to drive it to meets, events, etc.

I do have a pipe dream of driving a BRZ with double wishbone suspension all around and a boosted F20C....

Actually, it would basically be a S2k, but with a BRZ chassis and steering rack.

Lawyer up buddy

Good luck

Here, technically it only says that: It would be hard to argue that the difference is substantial in practice. The sustained loads on the engine could be the same no matter if there are other cars around me.

I just briefly looked at the Scion warranty guide and it says these are not covered, Just like Subaru, the Scion warranty is pretty vague.

Sustained loads on the engine can be just as hard going up a mountain say... driving through Colorado. Or canyoning.

Bummer, Mike. :(

I've wondered about this happening, fully expected this response from the manufacturer, and now you've confirmed my fears.

Manufacturers (and auto insurance companies) began (many years ago) to do online research of the activities of owners of their cars. One of the auto mags had an interesting article about this problem a number of years ago.

Many owners now use false names on entry lists for autocrossing, etc., and "vague" car descriptions such as "White Missile" rather than identify the make and model of car their competing with.

Subaru even made a big marketing point about how the car would carry your four racing tires in the back. Didn't they even say, "and a helmet, too?" I can't recall.

I don't know what we consumers can do to fight this.

If nothing else, perhaps you might negotiate with Subaru to sell you a new engine at discount, with the proviso that you give them your old engine. If Subaru is smart, they'll want that engine to study. But, maybe they've already seen all they need to see.

I would be surprised to learn that you have any legal remedy available to you. Every manufacturer's warranty that I've seen explicitly excludes any type of "speed" event from warranty coverage. My guess is that would be tough to defeat in court.

The problem with hiring a lawyer is that you'll probably find it difficult to locate an honest one. They'll all tell you that your case is promising, but they'll want money up front. Then they'll lure you down a very expensive path that will have you paying far more in the end than had you simply gone out and bought a new car! And that's in the unlikely event that you win your case in court! So... the lawyer path does not seem promising.

I wish there was a happy solution here.

If you continue participating in "speed events," you might wish to consider pursuing your activities anonymously. It's disgusting that this should be necessary, but what can one do?

They already took our first engine for teardown/analysis/study/whatever. Rumor has it the pictures for replacing the DI injector seals may be that very engine... who knows.

Based on discuss, there are manufacturers that do explicitly cover track events. Nissan for example, will warrant the GT-R, given that you don't have any modifications. Brake pads/rotors, and consumables of that sort get their warranties voided, but the core components of the car that are being used within factory specification are explicitly covered (MY11+ specifically). Older models are covered by extension through their warranty periods.

Driving on a track (non-competition) with a stock motor shouldn't provoke failure.

There's a flaw, maybe it's a fluke, maybe it isn't, either way the car was used as designed and it failed, that's a warranty issue cut and dry. Exhaust and Brakes could be construed as adding stress to the driveline, if that's the case Subaru and Toyota should change their marketing strategy away from powerslides and shift it towards women laughing on the beach.

Guess that's what the convertible is for.

True to some extent, but sometimes all it takes is a letter and a phone call from a well-known attorney to get manufacturers to man up...hardly expensive considering what the client is getting in return.

Further, I worked for a great attorney that was more honest than ANY other type of professional I have ever encountered. He was to the point, painfully honest, and often did tons of work for free...

Care to pass on said attorney's info via PM?