Vortech or AVO, seriously torn
 

I've been following both threads for the AVO TC kit and the Vortech SC kit for some time now.

They both seems like a very good option, and really torn between the two. Here is what I am looking for:

Long term reliability - I don't want my BRZ to turn in to a garage queen.
Power - good power over all, not laggy nor spiky power.
MPG - I am not concerned with MPG.
Future potential - I'd like to have the ability to upgrade parts to create more power/balance, tuning once my car becomes a garage queen.
E85 - I will not be using E85 in Oregon, due to reliability issues.
Fuel pump and injectors - I'd like to use the stock parts for the initial kit. Will upgrade if necessary in the future if adding more boost.

If I go with Vortech, I will go to Perrin. If I go with AVO, I will go to PRE.

If I can get ~240WHP, I will be satisfied.

Just wanted some thoughts, pros/cons from fellow enthusiasts, or people that already have them installed.

Or wait for more kits to come out? Any advice, input will be greatly appreciated. Thank you

Bob@Drift-Office has been looking for someone to buy a Vortech kit so that he can tune it and compare it to AVO. Doesn't seem like anyone here in the NW wants to touch the supercharger option, though. I suppose once you see the quality of the AVO kit in person it really makes it a no-brainer.

Long term reliability - to make comparable power with the Vortech you would need to crank the boost up. -1 reliability. AVO's kit makes modest (better than the vortech) power with 5psi. Scalable in the sense that you can swap turbos out later on, upgrade fuel system, etc.

Power - AVO kit is in full boost ~3000 rpm. Vortech is instant.

MPG - If you were concerned I would tell you to stay N/A

Future potential - see long term reliability

E85 - garbage

Fuel Pump and Injectors - AVO @5psi and stock fuel system make 230whp and almost 200tq. Vortech SC with new injectors, fuel pump, smaller pulley, and e85 makes ~250whp and ~180tq.




Seems like a pretty easy decision for me, but Bob is dying for someone to bring him a Vortech.

Go Vortech or wait for the PD supercharger to come out. Turbos always seem to want the boost cranked up. ;)

With the supercharger, pulley size will be finite.

most of the 86 guys I talk to in PDX all wants the supercharger, especially the one from Innovate.

Just a word from the not so wise, don't get a set HP number in your head. Chasing hp numbers is a very costly and expensive game. I spent over $50k with my Evo IX and never really went that "big." I was making over 550whp on a mustang dyno and pulled on ZR1's all day long. But the funny thing is, I was always a little jealous of the guys who put down bigger numbers. There were guys putting down 750+ on the same dyno. It's a ridiculous psychological game to get in to.

Just try to define a purpose or tangible goal for the car, and be happy when you get there. If that's running a 11.99 in the quarter, or maxing out NASA TT Class points, or beating your buddies muscle car, that's great. But it's better to define a purpose than set a number.

-Andrew

I've been wondering this also.. Glad you asked lol.

I agree, my brother, also a old school car enthusiast, said the exact same thing. One of my close buddy, which tends to be a "one upper" has a 1000WHP Supra that I will never beat with my BRZ.

Thanks for the good advise, and I hope I don't fall in to that trap. I am usually competitive and that may play a part in this "horsepower" game.

Are you referring to this in the particular state, or over all?

I'm the manufacturer, so I probably shouldn't be butting in - but take a drive in a car with the vortech and a car with the avo, that may help you make up your mind.

Overall. I mean, if economy isn't an issue, and e85 was plentiful and cheap then it would really be great, but its not cheap, less efficient, and hard to come by in this area.

Based on what you're describing, the positive displacement supercharger is what you want. You will have lag if you go centerfugal supercharger or turbo. Getting a small turbo that doesn't give much more horsepower will reduce lag if they tune it to kick in early, but you'll still have it. Lag not only means waiting for power, but also less control over your car in the corners, or just learning to live with it. Positive displacement is the most reliable from what I've read, has the least things that can go wrong, easy to install/upgrade, basically exactly what you described.

I second this. You wouldn't buy a car before test driving it so why not do the same with something that changes the car this drastically. I would personally wait until you can also drive the 3rd type of forced induction, positive displacement supercharger as well.

I had a chance to sit in the Perrins Vortech SC'd BRZ a while back. Of course it was glorious. I need to test all 3 cars at the same time since every one of them, I will probably fall in love with it if I test it individually.

Twin screw is a viable option as well, not sure when the release date will be. But with the positive displacement SC, will it hurt the motor more than centrifugal if the boost is immediate and essentially "always" on? With centrifugal, you have the choice to crank up the boost by increasing RPM but rides like stock below 3kRPM? Just curious with the longevity issue with twin screws if they boost "instantly" even at low RPM.

AVO vs Vortech?

Wow you got it easy! I'm thinking AVO, FA20Club kit (286hp on 5.3psi is nice), Vortech or wait for Sprintex.

Too...many...options.

Economy is a huge factor with the tuner. I get great gas mileage with my Honda that runs 100 percent E85. E85 is also a full dollar or more cheaper than 93 in Chicago. Not quite sure where the expensive thought is coming from.

If you want a peak HP car that will drive and handle differently than stock, you don't plan on doing anything but showing off your dyno sheets and popping your hood for high school girls; I say go turbo.

If you want a smooth, factory feeling powerband with no intrusion to you oil system. A smooth and instant power delivery, wicked manufacturer support and support from the big name brands that have a reputation to lose. Then go vortech.

Also, with the vortech, you get to throw on the UEL headers and get a beast sounding car. Not just another turbo 4 banger.

Jeff Perrin is capable of making 300whp on the stock fuel system, I've seen his car in person and its gorgeous.

I have seen the AVO kit in person, the numbers are there on the dyno but to be totally honest, I wouldn't be too stoked to pop my hood and show it off.

Here is the thing with this car that I don't think most people on this forum are realizing, sure it's cool to say "I've got 400+whp", but we have a 2700lb car in its heaviest form. 220-270whp puts you at the magical 10lbs:hp ratio that super car manufacturers strive to meet. It really isn't going to matter how you achieve that HP, be it S/c or turbo. The turbo power comes in a bit faster which will change the factory balanced, fun, predictable feel.

After a lot of research, personally, I am leaning towards the vortech with a super aggressive tune from Perrin until open source for the car picks up a little better.

Bob, still love you and drift office is amazing. Just my preference on this one.

Same boat I've been checking out too many turbo kit threads and sc threads. I want one soo badly its bad news. Only thi g about the Vortech sc is I haven't seen a single one put out anything near 300whp other than Perrins. Everyone else seems to be around 250ish.

I would be very happy with 275hp Nd that's roughly my goal but the ability to break 300 is just soo alluring

I'll wait patiently for a year waiting for the ino supercharger to be released before I make any deciding factors on the build for my car.

Super charger
-Boost comes with RPM range (higher the RPM the more boost) It's a ladder of boost.
-Reliability factor is that a supercharger will not require as much service as a Turbo set up and isn't as "picky" in different weather conditions like a turbo kit is. (once you start getting into more boost you will need different tunes for different temps) On a supercharger this isn't exactly an issue since the Boost is made by the actual inefficiency of the supercharger/pulley. Different pulleys will give you more or less boost.
-MPG it honestly depends on your foot.

Turbo
Depends on the turbo....
(usually boost comes all at once)

-Smaller turbo,
more lower end power
faster spool
boost will drop off at peak RPM
More torque and faster torque due to spool
More for time attack or autoX
Better MPG

-Bigger turbo,
more high end power
more lag
more boost
less low end torque usually (depends on supporting mods)
re bigger injectors and fuel pump
will require more maintenance on higher boost applications
overboost will need to be watched in temp changes
MPG will go down and car will run "weirder then stock in low RPMS"
Will make bra's fall off.

thanks for the valuable input guys. So far I get turbo = high school girls and bra's coming off. SC kit = way to go to keep balance of the car, but may have the lowest potential for HP compared to turbo kits.

So far Vortech is winning me over by a small margin..

You don't need different tunes for different temperatures on a turbo, at least not with our setup and tuning. We've run the turbo from 6000 feet to sea level, from 0 degrees to 100. Older cars, or running a speed density tune, yeah.

Boost comes in suddenly generally is a "feature" of bigger turbo's, a small turbo setup like ours comes in much like a OEM turbo setup. Smaller is a relative thing, it will do 350whp at higher boost levels.

I'm thinking I really need to pay Bob at @Drift-Office a visit and check out this beast myself

Whens temps go from 90 degrees to low 20's sometimes its best to have more then one tune. Otherwise if your car is tuned on a 70 degree day when the temps hit low 30's or 20's chances are you will overboost. At least thats how it has always worked with my Sti's n WRX's. IDK if there is some magical difference with the FA20 engine being boosted. These are also cars running 22 pounds of boost w/o eth or Meth @400WHP. Just from my personal experience.

P.s I do like your kits though and have run AVO turbos before and have no complaints!

If you are driving your turbo on a 20-30 degree weather day you better be doing it on a ice pond or ice track. No way i would take my car out on those cold days just asking for damage and accident waiting to happen.

No, I understand what you are saying - you know we've been in the Turbocharged Subaru market since 94. But that's why I was mentioning speed density tuning, which is incredibly popular in that market. Speed Density tunes are a quick, easy way to tune for power, but that's the downside of SD tuning. That's why we don't do a SD tune - and why it took so long to make the basemap.

It's easy to be in the low 30's. ESP if you drive in higher elevations around Oregon. He doesn't want a garage queen so the car still needs to be realisticly street-able.

e85 has a low energy density. It takes more e85 to go the same distance as a car running regular gasoline. E85 typically sees a 25%-30% drop in fuel economy, so with a 6sp manual FR-S being 22city/30highway we can assume that with e85 you will be around 15.5city/21highway.

Presently average prices in Washington are:

92: $3.83
e85: $3.13


So armed with those figures lets take a metaphorical trip. Lets go 1000 miles.

FRS' gas tank is 13.2 gallons max. We'll assume for the sake of argument that we are able to achieve no more than max highway MPG as stated above.

396 miles a tank on 92 octane
277.2 miles a tank on e85.

In order for you to complete the 1000 miles you would need to fill up (assuming you're running nearly dry and then filling up):

3 times on 92 (1188 potential on 3 tanks)
4 times on e85 (1108.8 potential on 4 tanks - ~80 miles LESS)


So to make that trip you're going to spend:

$151.67 for 92 octane
$165.26 for e85


e85 stations in my area, and circled where I actually drive. Closest station to my house is 50 miles. Sounds like a really attractive way to tune :thumbdown:
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b3...ps4324ac67.jpg

Agreed 100% and have used your products. :party0030: When my 2002 WRX loved your turbos. Also I was mainly refering to larger turbos like 30r or 35r turbos.

-Personally if I boosted this car I would use something like a JDM twin scroll vf42 or something. :happy0180:

I see more of a 15% decrease in efficiency, and I have access to it every where. I don't thing I have ever herd of a 30% loss actually. I wouldn't smack talk e85 because it doesn't work for you specifically. I see where you are coming from however.

Meh. Scientific statistics say 25-30. I'll roll with their facts. I'm not talking "smack", I'm pointing out the mathematical obvious. E85 is less efficient and ultimately will end up costing you more. If doing some rather basic math is smack talking then I suppose guilty as charged.

i'll stick to 92 since its a not even a half mile out of my way home to snag it at the cheapest chevron off 205 @212....... Plus the dudes there are always hella dope and treat my car with 100% respect. Always the same guys rocking out to some old 90's rock.

Smooth factory feeling powerband, instant power delivery? Sounds like Paul's car with the AVO setup. Maybe you should go for a ride.

I am buying the AVO kit. Unlike other posters, I don't pop my hood to get the girls to take off their shirts. I have outgrown that age, thank you, and put modifications on my car for more practical reasons. I do however get a kick out of opening a hood and NOT seeing the turbo!

I've seen all the dynos from bob, I've seen all the dynos from Perrin.

Since I've grown up, I do care about the quality of parts and the visual appeal if I am going to spend thousands of my hard earned dollars. It's the same reason I spent the extra money to have my eclipse redone at PSI.

I just don't see that build quality in the AVO kit, I'm sorry. The performance is great, which I believe I mentioned above. But it looks like something from eBay.

And yes, you can see the turbo as soon as you pop the hood and look in...

Well, I think Ben and Johnny plus a few others are coming down again, with new mods, we can chat then and I'm sure Paul / AVO wouldn't mind going for test drives. :)


Bob @ Drift-Office, LLC

I've sat in a Vortech SC'd BRZ at Perrin, now I need to drive up to Driftoffice to check out the AVO!

Please do and give us a long description of both so it can help us decide what we want as well. :) Not that I have the money for that right now.

Hey OP, to bring this topic back from the dead, any updates from the AVO setup at Drift Office?

I have not had the chance to drive up there yet. Work and life has been interfering. I'll probably give them a call today.

well i spent 6700 on a stage 1.5 AVO turbo for my auto frs...totally worth the money! i dont really have anything to compare it to besides stock but it makes a huge difference. the power is always there if needed, just give it some gas and go. this might be since im in an auto i always have boost.

instead of having to wait till your in the 5500 or higher rpm to feel some oomph its more at like 2500. also if its wet out you dont want to romp on the gas since you could break traction pretty easy.

*edit* the 6700 includes parts, labor and tuning.

I'm actually trying to decide between the 2 as well. I'm leaning towards turbo. But after this thread I'm leaning towards sc. Glad this thread is actually useful and not just people bashing on either or.

Mine is presently at Drift Office getting the AVO kit installed.