"blipping" the throttle takes more that a blip?!
 

Every car I've owned for the past 20+ years has been M/T, so in therory, I know what I'm doing. Normally when downshifting, in all my previous cars, a slight "blip" of the throttle with the side of my foot during heal/toe was all that was needed to rev match, but in this car I'm finding he RPMs fall almost immediately and much, much faster than everything else I'm accustomed to. I literally have to stab the gas peddle to the floor to keep the RPMs high enough for the lower gear. It's driving me crazy!

Every car is different, of course, but is there an specific explaination in regards to our car that is at play here? Maybe it's the shorter gear ratios that's throwing me off?

I never got the "blipping" thing. While the clutch is in and my hand is down shifting a gear, my right foot is bringing the revs up to where I thiink they will want to be when I release the clutch which will be as soon as I'm in the lower gear. It's all very smooth.

This car seems to want more of a blip than others I've had--just speed up your downshift & that'll help the match.

@whaap: Unless you're downright riding the clutch,(and I know you're not) it looks to me like we're doing the same thing, it's just a difference on opinion of the definition of (or the duration of the) "blip".

@GTB: Yeah, I'll get used to it. What's probably throwing me off more is that I'm technically still in a "break-in", so I'm babying the clutch and shifting pretty slow. Still, the drop seems pretty dramatic. Just a tap to the accelerator on my IRL would give me 2-3k. The same tap on the BRZ is <1K.

I've noticed this too... I double clutch my downshifts but it does require more than a "blip".. If I'm around 5500 in 4th I literally have to bring it up to redline when I blip the throttle on the downshift. I double clutch really fast but if you're slow at all it doesn't work out well on the FA20. I've learned that the more aggressive you drive this car, the more rewarding it is. It does seem to loosen up a little after a couple k on the odo but not much.

light weight pully

/thread

I think whaapis describing a simple downshift whereas KSC is describing a downshift while braking since he mentions heel/toe and WHAAP mentions his right foot on the accelerator (nothing about the brake).

In any case, KSC - you'll get used to it. There seems to be less angular momentum maintained by the drivetrain when you let off the gas on this car, and if you get lightweight pulleys, it'll be even more pronounced.

I do find myself having to really time it right and apply the exact pressure needed whereas in previous MT cars (Honda/Mitsu/Jeep) it could be manhandled with less precision.

Could actually make it worse, since a lightweight pulley will conserve less angular momentum. Yes, it spins up faster, but it also drops faster.

Get racerom with the downshift rev match function....

True. While I know how to heel/toe I don't while driving on the street/highway. I will down shift and get the attitude of the car where I want it before I enter a turn. I guess I learned that from many years of riding motorcycles.

I do the same. Some autocross guys prefer to keep their heel/toe method consistent on road and on track, but since I never track my car, and since I also had to learn how to shift safely on motorcycles, I do it your way.

I know the exact feeling, it's like the pedal has some lag in it.

I'd rather have a lightweight flywheel than a pulley. I have noticed the engine is slow to rev when blipping; sometimes I just don't give it enough gas on the downshift. Annoying, but like I said a lightweight flywheel would have far more impact than a pulley.

As far as shifting, you do want to shift before the turn. Shifting mid-turn is a no-no so getting it all done before the turn is standard. Especially in RWD cars, from what I understand. Braking, shifting, and turning at the same time requests more from the tires than just turning.

I blame it on electronic throttle/drive by wire.

Yep. 5500 in 4th = 79 mph. Change down to 3rd = 6989 rpm.

Now, if you repeat that by again changing down at 5500 rpm, 3rd into 2nd, you’ll zing your motor, forcing a mechanical over-rev. 3rd at 5500 = 7809 rpm in 2nd. Oooops… You don't want to do that. :(

Instead, one could change down from 3rd at 5212 rpm = 7400 rpm in 2nd, right at redline. But why push your luck?

I recommend playing it safe and not changing down above 5000 rpm, and 4500 would give a better margin of safety.

4500 rpm in 3rd = 6400 rpm in 2nd. I’m more comfortable with this. Observe a maximum rpm of 4500 for changing down to the next gear; you'll be less likely to make a mistake when rushed that could blow up your engine.

For those still learning how to drive a manual, this illustrates how one CAN OVER-REV the engine. The computer rev limiter only works when under power in any gear; the limiter will prevent the driver from over-revving the engine under acceleration.

But, the rev limiter cannot prevent a "mechanical over-rev" produced by changing to a lower gear that will have the drive wheels spinning the engine up over redline via the gearbox when you engage the clutch.

I did mention heal/toe during a corner entry in my opening post, but I experience the same sensation while rev matching a normal downshift as well. So, we're all talking about the same thing, essentially.

It's just VERY different from my last car. The shorter gears are somewhat shocking at first. I find I'm shifting wayyyy sooner than I'm used to. I would shift into 4th in the high 40s and use that gear to cruise in off highway. In the BRZ I'm already in 4th in the high 30s and cruising more in 5th. Again, this is just DDing around town.

It's getting there. Even the ride into work this morning, I was able to adjust a bit more. I just have to get better acquainted with it is all. I should mention I've only had the car for a week, so I am jumping the gun a little bit. Also, I'm coming straight off a FI into a NA and taking a 100HP drop to boot, so I'm sure that has something to do with the steaper learning curve.

I blip for days.

I would discourage that. Complete all gear changes while braking IN A STRAIGHT LINE and before turning the steering wheel. You may wish to employ a trail-braking approach, but get your gear changing chores done before turning, lest you stuff it into the trees along the roadside. ;)

My BRZ works fine. With additional practice I expect yours will be fine, too. The BRZ is actually one of the easiest cars to heel-toe for my size 8.5 feet. But that's just me, and I've seen many posts from folks finding it difficult for them. My legs are fairly straight, though, and that helps a lot. If you're like Walter Rohrl, with your knees sharply bent, then I'd expect it would be far more awkward to heel-toe comfortably.

Oh, and isn't the flywheel lighter on this engine? That would cause the revs to drop faster than many cars. I've had mine since last summer ... and I've already forgotten the initial difficulties.

Keep practicing and enjoy this wonderful car.

Yep. It's a close-ratio gearbox. 5th is 1.000 to 1, where in most cars that's 4th gear. So, we've got an extra gear, so to speak, in the first five.

It keeps you busy shifting, doesn't it? :)

They gave us a wonderful gearbox to enjoy the experience.

grumble grumble second gear grumble grumble

Haha! Wait, I did mean to say approaching corner entry! I try never to brake while the wheels are turned if possible.

Sometime I forget there is a 6th gear! :lol:

LOL. I've never had a car that did NOT have a "reluctant" second gear when cold, and especially in the winter months in the snow belt. But, having said that, I would agree that our BRZ is the stiffest by far when cold and shifting into second. After it warms up, it's fine, but that could take 5-10 minutes of driving.

For those who are new to manual transmissions, your gearbox is fine; it just needs to warm up, and this is normal.

Me too. Drive by wire, and consequently pedal response, can vary drastically from car to car..

Atta boy! :thumbsup:

Me, too! :)

So, are you enjoying your new BRZ?

When I run my muffler delete I find I can rev match much easier than when I run the stock muffler. I'm not sure if it's due to the increased sound or if it actually changes the rate the engine revs down.

For the most part though, you can blame most of your rev-matching issues to DBW and emissions.

I think it's the electronic throttle too, my truck has better throttle response even with play in the cable.

Car senses you're slowing down so it lets the revs drop, you put the clutch in "cool beans" the car thinks, then you hit the throttle: "WAIT WHAT OH GOD WHAT DO I DO?" then it revs up once it figures out that's what you really really want.

...

zigah zigah ah

Reminds me of the '04 RAV4 my mother bought, it has a very similar response to sudden throttle inputs under deceleration to my FRS.

Are there not some cars that have what I call 'computerized automatic blipping' (for manual transmissions)?

370z has fancy rev-matching. I'm not a fan...

I wonder if the perception of lag or a need for a more aggressive or sustained blipping action is due to the throttle pedal dead zone. I know it was causing me to screw up downshifts when I first got the car, especially coming from an old-school Miata cable throttle. Other people have also commented on it when driving the car for the first time. I has assumed it was par for the course with a throttle-by-wire system, but apparently it's pretty bad in our cars.

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It's pretty bad, yes. My 08 STI didn't have nearly as much lag. Actually, I can't even recall having this sort of complaint about the STI.

How heavy is the OEM flywheel?

Interesting. So, in otherwords, and I'm just throwing out random numbers here, my 1 second "blip", in reality, is only registering on the accelerator for .5 seconds? If that's the case, along with the other factors already mentioned, I'd say that's gotta be it!

Compared to my old e30, the frs is a dream to rev match in. To get the same amount of revs as the frs I would either have to floor the pedal or blip twice.

Yup, the revs fall quickly. Light flywheel to blame?

This car does not have a light flywheel by any stretch of the imagination. It's been weighed at over 20lbs. Don't recall the weight off the top of my head, but it's posted somewhere here.

Agree on this. The first ~3 mm of throttle pedal does nothing. May not sound like a lot, but it is for some drivers (including myself).

Electronic throttle :(

Disagree completely with the deadzone theory. My truck has some slack in the cable and I can feel it, I can also feel the play in the FRS pedal, there is a noticeable delay in the FRS from when I am engaging the throttle pedal (after the deadzone) and when the engine actually responds compared to my 20 year old pickup truck.

Come to think of it, it might not necessarily be the electronic throttle, it may have to do with the ECU switching over to "compressor" mode for fuel savings but it's definitely an electrical choice by Toyota.

But what the hell do I know.

Dual-mass flywheel? I noticed my 318is is sluggish to rev, too. Can't wait to swap out for a single mass.