The Valley of Death (VOD) and Top End Progress
 

About 6 months ago I was approached to see if we can do anything with the BRZ. At first, I said no, but I'd be glad to put it on and see what the other guys are doing (moto has been MX-5 only up until 2012). So we put the car on the dyno to see what the purchased tunes did...and sure enough this is what we found. BTW, this is NOT any tuner starting with a V [thanks for the heads up though John--I owe you!!!] ;)

http://www.moto-east.com/dynos/ft86/Nov_dyno.jpg

So here we some good gains 4-6k, and up top with the higher rev-limit. We also worked with another tuner to send back and forth datalogs via email (as our business model) and put on nearly a dozen runs--and yet no better (actually worse than stock). So...at this point having done the MX-5 for a few years this looked easy enough. Giant torque dip, 2.0l high compression motor...wonky cam phasing and AFRs on the stock map...Sure!

However, not so easy.

After a few weeks of testing and road tuning we got to this (on a different dyno)

http://www.moto-east.com/dynos/ft86/dec_dyno.jpg

So we're doing better, but still up top it is a bit lacking. The nice thing is it gave plenty of time to play with the RaceROM features, custom maps, and a whole bunch of other goodies in the software. The EcuTek guys invested a ton of time and money into this. Nothing like this has ever been available for tuners using the stock ECU.

Regardless, further testing ensued. It would be as though for every two steps forwards, we went a step back. Unfortunately you won't find Subaru's in-house methods for peak cylinder pressures or their calculations for intake tract length vs. piston cup size in any textbook; but fortunately patents are actually quite useful in finding out a particular strategy. And the crux of it is that unlike the any straight DI, or straight port injection, variable intake or exhaust cam car--all of these MUST absolutely be perfect in timing to get any HP gains. Before you would tune the ignition timing, lean out the AFR, remove torque limits and there you go, 10-20 hp. Well, Subaru/Toyota, thank you very much, the job has become harder. The stock car will learn up to a very high ceiling. The stock maps are already fairly optimized. To make HP on this platform is no joke, I credit Visconti and Perrin for having real gains anywhere early on. Regardless, this is the last dyno from last weekend. We finally got the torque dip more of a "dip" rather than "pause". With custom mapping we also got the top end opened up a heck of a lot more. (note: this is the lower reading dyno again)

http://www.moto-east.com/dynos/ft86/feb_dyno.jpg

With all that said, dynos only tell half the story. Acceleration is about 1 second quicker 0-60, and with the latest RaceROM features you can record "longitudinal g's". This is REALLY cool, because you can actually see what the tunes are doing in real world conditions and with learning. You'll find high variability between runs based on temps on the dyno. If you have a straight road, good traction, low winds; repeatability on the street can actually be better if you're taking care since you can cool off, take advantage of the CAI, not doing ECU resets etc.... The flat foot shifting, launch control, autoblip are really cool. Another neat feature is to "calm" the rev limiter so auto-x guys aren't losing 5mph in 2nd.

So this is how you can look (anyone with ProECU can do this with RaceROM v4) and see what you're getting g wise. Look like a torque curve maybe? ;)

http://www.moto-east.com/dynos/ft86/3d_stock.PNG


The 2d view-this can be used to analyze the differences the maps are having. You can also use software like virtual dyno to get HP ratings. This is more precise for instantaneous torque, whereas the VD types are a better indicator of area under the curve since they use timing. Neither are a substitute for a dyno, but are extremely useful for tuning if done proper.
http://www.moto-east.com/dynos/ft86/2d_map_compare.PNG

And finally, tuned we have this logged G curve on the latest tune:

http://www.moto-east.com/dynos/ft86/3d_moto.PNG

Much smoother. So that's it for now, we will resume finagling with it as it warms and maybe do some E85 testing. For now I'm fairly happy to say you can definitely make HP with this car on pump gas--though any broad gains across the board I'm a bit skeptical. This I found to be very easy to do with the dyno via gearing or learning. In the dip and up top there is clearly some room.

wow, some great info here! thanks for the post and welcome to ft86 club!

your last image link is broken, so here it is:

http://www.moto-east.com/dynos/ft86/Nov_dyno.jpg

When do you guys expect to have a product for sale? I autocross quite a bit and it definitely seems like you guys had us in mind when doing your research.

Wow that looks really good. Have you guys had a chance to mess with cars with various bolt ons?

I assume you will be releasing this tune for sale at some point?

Moto-east.com




Simmons

Really interested in seeing what you can do what bolts do when added and then retuned especially the header.

These numbers are with bolt-ons but generally the ECU can compensate just fine for the little stuff. The fuel trims are still within only a couple of percent. Stuff like headers or anything before the throttle body is a different story though. Same goes with changing MAF size.

Yup. as above it's been out, but not advertised as I wanted to make sure we have something solid. All of the above runs are 4th gear, 5th gear we were up to 192 whp uncorrected on the "lower" dyno, but for the sake of not boiling the oil on back to back runs, we kept it in 4th and not published that one since it has no comparison on the same dyno.

Me too! The header testing will start pretty soon. Going to add some more tech stuff below for those interested.

You bet--last year we had several nationals folks running our tune in STR on the MX-5, and we've done the "smooth" rev limit on some of those as well so that you're not dropping MPH top of 2nd

Welcome!

Perusing through the 150+ datalogs we see another reason dyno's don't show everything. See the screencap below, can anyone guess which one has the CAI and which one doesn't? :)

(No, we don't make one for the BRZ so not a sales thing!)

http://www.moto-east.com/dynos/ft86/CAI_data.PNG

Will it show gains on the dyno? Nope. Will it give you a bit more in the midrange on the street? Heck yes. Hats off to Perrin for the intake above. No tuning changes necessary so it is the same exact size, and we can see up top the airflow is peaking at 160 g/s vs 154 stock. (not pictured). Not a huge deal, but if you increase the rev limit it is important. Of note, it is not as simple as rigging some aluminum together....

A little update....
 

Now that we have our own BRZ here to play with, we spent the break-in period testing variations on the stock setup, 3rd gear for higher sample rate. That and tweaking the racerom features for friendlier driving.

Here's a virtual dyno comparison on a flat road going in the same direction...disregard the ultimate numbers, but the differences should speak for themselves. Note the one stock-ish [red] "freak" run could not be repeated; while the tuned runs were back to back consistent. This map has 2-3-4 increasing in aggressiveness, hence the increasing plots. Orange is more akin to what was seen in subsequent logs with mostly stock mapping. Can't see it here but the graph starts at 3400 RPM, ends at 7400.

Making headway but there's more room to go. Compared to the car with bolt-ons, that one is making at least 8-12 hp more everywhere with a cat-back, CAI, and overpipe.

http://www.moto-east.com/dynos/ft86/...d_stockcar.PNG

It's nice to see you on here Mike.

Wow. This looks like a winner!

Edit: That looks sarcastic. It's not. This tune looks like what I would have done, had I the skill to do it. But , you know, I don't. So thanks.

Interesting.

LOL didn't notice! The amount of work it takes to get a single hp (let alone 10) out of the dip I didn't even thing sarcasm was possible ;)

Have been working on getting it consistent and repeatable over the last several days. Had a chance to put on a few hundred more miles (this car is a daily driver after all) and the learning on this ECU continues to improve. Unlike piggybacks though, we can alter it. The latest maps are all done using custom RaceROM features so that Map 1 is nearly stock, which means it makes for an easy comparison to the stock tune without having to to re-flash. Map 1 is still a few HP over stock in the dip, but this way we can empirically test variations of cam phasing and injection ratios.

Here's another one from today, can you guess which is the stock run vs most aggressive?

http://www.moto-east.com/dynos/ft86/j_map.PNG

That's the car with bolt-ons. The stock tuned car is a few HP down but otherwise the same. Still have room to go but this tune variation leaves ALL learning intact for reliability purposes without compromise. This way 91 octane folks have nothing to worry about and no cats will be harmed in the long run.

The rev limit is finally tamed with a buttery smooth 7600 here (or whatever you want) without the 300+ rpm dropoff. Hopefully will have time tomorrow to shoot some video to demonstrate.

Thanks for this thread Mike. Good insight here!

Bump for awesome thread!

Awesome

Possible to drive up there when the time is right?

Subscribed. I thought it would be hard to start another tuning thread and show any insight over what has already been posted by the other guys (hats off to them), but this thread delivers.

Thanks for taking the time and effort to give us yet another well researched, well tested, well described option for tuning. Can't wait to see your final results.

Give Mike a email or call, he can hook you up.

Definetly worth the drive.:burnrubber:

Simmons

I am in PA, Let me know if you need another test car ;) Its my second car so Can be up with ya for over a week if needed

The more the merrier!

Testing continues, currently playing with the E70 available. So far so good. Should be back to the dyno in the next week or two if all goes well. Current tune shows the following on the g-meter with e70: http://www.moto-east.com/dynos/ft86/e70_gs.PNG

Overall higher and more consistent. After finally getting a BRZ and really putting some miles on it, that dip bugged me even more. Buried in engineering papers the last few weeks I'm pretty confident that it is about as good as we'll get that dip with stock cams/header/intake manifold. It is mostly a cam issue, but tuning does absolutely help.

Below is a torque/HP curve of an MX-5 (2.0l port injection) vs the BRZ (early prototype tune).

http://www.moto-east.com/dynos/ft86/brz_mx5.jpg

Note how they are an inverse of one another. You can't have it everywhere, even with continuously variable dual VVT. Note the FA20 dip is really the up top HP. I'd have to agree subaru/toyota figured you'd be in that range the least. Either getting down low torque putting around town or all out HP on the course or track.

E85 opens up a whole slew of possibilities here. I have it set now that it is map switchable and not needing the sensor; however that route would still be more ideal. Auto-x rules don't permit it for the particular class we're worried about here, not to mention it is rather steep at the moment.

Mike - do you have a revised tune available? If so, send it my way.

Willie

where exactly are you guys located?
I am in york Pa and trying to find a "local" shop to work with for tuning.

...so basically OP is saying that all tunes claiming 20whp+ are bullsh*t?

I need to start saving for a turbo. All of this work for a few measly HP is painful to watch.

I don't believe that's the main point of what OP is saying. I think the most important part is that these car's take multiple data logs and reflashes, over an extended time period, to get the most consistency and maximum power.

Even with a turbo, nearly every kit out there requires a license, and practically speaking, a cable. You will still need to data log and update your flash to get the best results.

Exactly...the first time on the dyno it looked like an easy 15+ hp across the board. But with the learning on this car it is difficult to pinpoint exact gains. Between the fine learning and the advance multiplier, the stock car starts off strong, but after a few runs and some miles the power would drop off. Initial testing then proved disappointing when compared to a freshly reset stock tune....just a few hp in the dip and up top. But further testing showed that consistency on the stock tune was terrible, and if you averaged the HP gains on the stock tune car vs the tuned car, the gains were more substantial. With ethanol I was surprised to see that today in 50 deg weather we're pulling the same g's and the car feels just as fast as in 30 deg weather. Stock car it was night and day.

In the dip and up top as you can see in the dyno (vs fresh reset stock tune) we still did good. While the stock tune would falter after a while, the performance of the tuned car would be more consistent.

As to what others do I have no idea and it is not relevant to this thread, but gearing has an effect on dynojet type dynos and you have to compare 4th to 4th 5th to 5th etc....

Having done this in the MX-5 arena for a few years the last thing I want is a customer doing a dyno and finding no gains...but what we see at times is the stock tune works good most of the time, but when you average out runs, or look at sustained performance; the tuned cars are faster.

I wish I could make public the stuff we have on the backend of the EcuTek platform (it would be giving it away...) but the featureset and map switching ability here is unprecedented.

An update for pump gas folks is in the works as well, waiting for the weather to warm up a bit to make sure we make the most of it.

In regards to the turbo/SC options--absolutely, you'll love it. The MX-5 I have is a rocket at 2450lbs and ~350whp at this point. But two different beasts. One spins the wheels at command, the other is a balanced and precise tool that needs little to no maintenance. Both are incredibly fun, but it stinks to be half way through the rev range and lose power. 10 lb/ft down low and 15 hp up top don't seem like much, but given the cost/hp and the additional features it is a bargain.

Located in Easton, PA, but we have dyno availability either out of Easton, Nazareth, and Lansdale, PA. Since so many of the customers are located quite far away, we have done remote dyno sessions via e-mail/skype from AU to EU to CT. As long as the dyno operator has WiFi we can dyno remotely by receiving the logs/plots and sending tunes. Never thought this would be possible even 5 years ago but it works!

ok good to know...
i am almost ready for a tune so i will be looking soon.

I'm well within driving distance. Currently have just a drop-in filter, and will have a catback on the way in the very near future.. If you would like a donor for some tuning, please PM me. I've got plenty of free time to come visit...

Bump for @moto-mike , ran into him the other day with whom I believe was @Simmons testing Simmons JDL UEL and mikes e85 tune.

Btw while I was driving away, Simmons exhaust was retardo loud, no wonder he got a ticket.

Yeah, it's loud ;)

Don't worry, the TIG machine has been kept warm for Mr Simmons, we should have about 12 lbs or so worth of sound reduction to replace the much heavier yet loud cat back...

Otherwise the VOD has been eliminated as far as I'm concerned. Once the bottleneck (header) is changed, and we then tune for it, there is no more Valley of Death, and the top-end is maintained. You can see the dyno in the JDL thread, but that was from a tuned to a more tuned file. Once we get the 93 octane car the header we'll do the proper testing of stock, header only, tune only, header + tune to evaluate all. Then we may stick an exhaust or intake on after that, just want to make sure we have every variant of tunes for the folks who want to stay a bit more stock. I have a feeling a stock exhaust/intake but with header/tune combo, is going to do well here.

Sweet any idea on when we can expect that? ;D

I can't wait to get my P&L header on and let you work your magic.

good questions, I think there were a few folks in line before I put the payment down

Indeed, stop on by :) We'll be dynoing again next tuesday @ Nazareth, but it sounds like all the header folks are quite busy so I doubt you'll get it by then!

Tell me more about this. I was contemplating JDL header and stock exhaust but I was told I should look into a resonated exhaust to "free up the flow". I didn't think the stock exhaust was all that restrictive. My end game is to have the most power with the least noise.

The verdict is out on the stock exhaust.

Having looked at the stock setup, one has to question the balance of velocity vs flow. The stock overpipe looks awful when you first look at it, but the design actually has many benefits for keeping exhaust velocity. Now, what happens when you put a catless header with a 2.5 output on it? That's the big "IF"

The stock front pipe (cat/hemholtz) actually terminates to a 2.5 outlet. The current prototype exhaust (not for mass production) is utilizing that. It will allow us to test both the stock overpipe/front pipe combo with stock or our 2.5" cat back, vs an aftermarket 2.5 overpipe/front pipe with a 2.5 cat back.

This should yield good info as to where exactly the choke point is, and what is most beneficial when it comes to flow vs exhaust velocity. Then we can play with overlap and other tuning aspects to see what creates the "wall" of inefficiency/cylinder filling 3500-4200 RPM...and thus come up with a perfectly sized/mated exhaust for a header.

Mike it sounds like I should play the waiting game a bit if I wanna get the most bang for my deer. I'm really hoping I can get away with adding a header, getting reasonable power, and simultaneously not making my car sound ridiculous.

Bump for @moto-mike for excellent customer service and 12am-4am vortech tune... Piss poor planning on my part, but he still came out and saved my ass.

No kidding field service at it's best ;)

Now to get the deer jerky from out under my MX-5...

Mike,

What if anything ahve you learned about oil temps and the cars HP? Have you seen the same issues as Perrin where HP drops after temps of about 220f ? How has that impacted your tuning?

There's a reason my cars name is "DEER!" I'm happy to find out its not just me... Btw I need a moto-east sticker to slap under my hood. Preferably not one that says MX-5 on it.