So my FR-S is officially a lemon...
 

I've battled with the tail light condensation issue for a while, but it's finally reached the point where it's entered "lemon territory".

I've got the right tail light fixed 2X and now the left one is collecting condensation, so the same issue is rearing it's ugly head yet again.

PA Lemon law states the following:

So I'll be taking it to the dealership next week to get it fixed for the same issue for the 3rd time, which means that it qualifies for the Lemon law.

It absolutely stinks... because I love this car, but I really can't deal with having such a defective car for both liability and financial reasons.

E.g. if I get in an accident while my tail light is fogged up with condensation, the other person could put me at fault because my tail lights/turn signal were not visible due to a defect.

Plus, I am a really busy guy and I can't take time out of my schedule every couple weeks to get the tail light replaced.

Not to mention - having a brand new car with a defect that needs continual repair significantly reduces the value. So it's a tough spot to be in, but it looks like I will be exploring the Lemon route.

Overall, it's disappointing that I'll have to go this route... but I hope that Toyota/Subaru can improve their quality control.

Good luck

Sent from my flux capacitor using Taptalk

That sucks. It seems as though the repair is hit or miss. I wonder if thats an issue with the part or the trained monkeys installing them.

PS - No offense to any of the trained monkeys on here ;)

My car was built in June and has the condensation issue. I thought they resolved it on cars starting with mid/late May build dates?

How bad is it ?

I would just take the tail light out pop some silicon around the seal and call it a day, I don't think its 100% lemon worthy unless you have the Atlantic in your taillight causing shorts and such

Out of curiosity, is the tail light actually filling up with condensation and looks like crap, or just a little build up at the top?

I thought this thread would be about the engine, transmission or electrical system/ecu.

"repair or correct any defect which substantially impairs the use, value or safety of the vehicle which occurs"

so now the question is...is your lawyer going to be able to prove against theirs that the condensation somehow stops the taillights from working, decreases the value of the car to a point where your credit is negatively impacted or creates an environment during normal use which would be unsafe for the driver, passengers or others on the road. Good luck...

I am sorry you are having trouble with your tail lights. That sucks!

Ok, so has anyone on this forum actually "Lemon Lawd" a car?

From my friends experience, he actually had to return his new X5, it was not easy at all. He had to get a lawyer. It was in the shop for six months out of the first nine with electrical issues.

Found this also...
Pennsylvania Lemon Law Basics
The Pennsylvania lemon law covers any consumer who buys, or leases, and registers a new motor vehicle in the state. Under the Pennsylvania Lemon Law your car may be declared a lemon if it meets All of the following conditions:

It has a nonconformity (a defect, or condition) the nonconformity is covered by the manufacturer's express warranty
The nonconformity SUBSTANTIALLY impairs the use, market value, or safety of the car
The nonconformity is not the result of an accident, abuse, neglect, or alteration of the car by persons other than the manufacturer or its authorized dealer
You reported the nonconformity at least once to the manufacturer's authorized dealer during the Pennsylvania Lemon Law Rights Period of 1 year or 12,000 miles whichever comes first.
You gave the manufacturer or its authorized dealer three opportunities to repair the nonconformity.

:needpics:

How bad are they? Not doubting what you are saying, pics are worth a thousand words. My vote is for the standardized work content not being followed during the repair (eg. Too high of a torque).

I'm sorry to hear about your troubles but I personally wouldnt go down the lemon law route...its going to be more trouble than its worth for just taillamps.

Never heard of a car getting lemon law status for tailights, very strange. They will send in an engineer from corporate to do the repair before they let it get that far usually.

i understand your frustration but i find it a bit extreme to lemon law a car cause of a plastic tail light , in reality it makes sense the demand for the car is so grate they need to rush packaging parts and as most people know plastic housed taillights need to cure after creation, it seems toyota/subaru is making the parts and not letting them completely cure and test before putting it together so basically we get mildly warped plastic housings at the seals. id honestly just bring it in get the new taillights and keep living my day. if it comes back do it again till they get a proper seal. if it does drive you nuts, get the new taillights take them out yourself and put some silicone around the seals like stated and end of story.

i just honestly think lemon lawing a car because of a tail lamp assembly is a little extreme to rid yourself of a car you love.

if you were having mechanical problems multiple Xs in a row then id be like sorry to hear hope you get your money back and stuff. but a tail light assembly.. to me is just a little overboard. i too am busy but it is a first year production and there are issues we will inevitably go through this should be understood when purchasing a first year mode. but hey its your call bud sorry to hear you are having that hard a time.

i have a tiny bit of condensation but it went away im going to wash the car tomorrow after work see if it comes back if so ill call my dealer and bring it in when i have a day off done deal. but im a little more patient then most being a mechanic and understanding supply and demand and understanding parts do have factory flaws. but best of luck would like to see you still happy with your 86

I think this is more a cry of frustration than a realistic attempt to lemon law the car.

Sadly, we as a group are pretty much early adopters, and are going to live through all the intro hassles. How the dealers interact with us is going to be the critical factor. If they play games it is going to cost them, if we feel that they are working with us, I know that I can be understanding.

The taillight issue seems to be one of a mounting stud that cracks with little provocation.It is a supplier issue that mayor may not have a solution in place as of yet. At this point, I expect that Scion is just slapping in existent stock taillights and hope for the best. I have the problem in both my taillights, but figure that I will wait till I am in for service. Currently looking for some goldfish stickers to put on for the occasion.

I've actually Lemoned two vehicles over the years and I didn't need a lawyer as stated above because it was pretty cut and dry. First was in 1998 with a Mazda B4000 pick up that had an issue with the clutch. No matter who drove it or how the clutch engaged there was always a shudder that was annoying beyond belief. They changed it out 3 times in 6 months and eventually I received my purchase price back plus they compensated my gas mileage and after all was said and done I came out $800 ahead. The second was my ex wife's impulse but of the 2005 Chevy Equinox that every time it rained the floor got wet inside. After about 3 months of the car sitting at the dealer they determined that the cause was faulty welds at the factory roof seams from the factory and deemed the car a lemon. Being that she traded in a 2002 Civic Si during the purchase I had to write a check for $1,200.00 to bury the deal. I hated that hunk of junk Equinox anyways so I was stoked to have it gone.

All that said, no way in hell will they lemon your car over condensation in the tail lamp housings. Just ride the dealer hard and make sure they test the lamps before returning your car. They should provide you a loaner during this testing period so your time spent at the dealer should be minimal. Hope this helps.

I can't believe you are making such a big deal over a fogged tailight.
It's not like an engine failure or something.

you guys need to get out of this country and check the SERIOUS problems people in other countries have.

:thumbdown:

I can see being frustrated but I wouldn't be angry at a car because of tail light problems. It appears the manufacturer that supplies the lights to Toyobaru had/has a quality control problem. That or the installers are screwing up a good product by over tightening. It's a totally new car in the market and things like this are bound to happen. It's the price we pay for having such a unique automobile. I would take another look at the whole issue and "cowboy up".

You guys seem to not understand the following...

1) This issue has been recurring... go do a search if you want some pics

2) If I have to fix the same issue OVER and OVER again.... it's obviously a defect.

It's not a reasonable expectation that you should have to get your taillights fixed 1X a month for the forseeable future.

I know it's a tough crowd around here, so I knew to expect some of this type of backlash.

If you want to pay $30K for a car... only to have to fix the tail lights 1X a month, then go for it. But I'm DEFINITELY not that guy.

I didn't plunk down all my hard earned cash so I can ride around in a defective car that is perpetually in a state where it needs repair. That's not me at all.

so glad my car was built april, it has yet to have ANY issue. Well it got condensation for one night but after that nothing.

repair or correct any defect which substantially impairs the use, value or safety of the vehicle

This will be extremely difficult to prove. That word is so vague and broad you'll be hard pressed to get a lawyer that A: will fight with Scions legal department for years and B: be able to prove it.

The only bright side of the whole thing is if they fight it and lose they pay your attorney fees. The down side is if you can find a lawyer that can't define substantial you're stuck with the car. Good luck.

Ride around in a defective car? I'm sure its frustrating but they should have a Master Tech or Engineer install a new set of tailights. I really think you are overreacting it sounds like you aren't happy with the car purchase or the dealership and are trying to find a reason to get out of it.

Is there a TSB for this problem?

I personally think its absurd to return the car over condensation. However, the lemon law might motivate them to eventually get this right vs dragging their heels.

Alternately if you we're hard set to do it at this point and the law was cut and dried, they should buy it back less mileage and tax. In other words unless you really just wanted out of the car you too will have motivation to give Toyota the chance to correct this despite a possible sequence of failed attempts.

i can appreciate and understand your frustration,but are you serious about proceeding based upon a defective tail light housing? as mentioned,try running a bead of "silicon grease" around the outside diameter where the tail light "mates" with the the other half of the assembly,and see what happens!

So what you're sayin' is they have your second color (if such a thing exists) choice in stock as a great plan-b with a "hella-free" service plan?

I have the same problem, my right tail light was already changed for condensation and its back. Even worse.

Now the right one is getting it as well and is also slightly cracked, i'll have to go back and change them both. Hope i don't have any problems....

Isn't the problem of the taillights getting condensation from the light being torqued too hard during installation? Maybe its the fault of the person putting it in, not the car...?

thats actually what teh TSB report says, the tech who installs it is spose to be very careful and torque to specific spec. or it will crack the (boss) i guess it says on the list lol . if you do it cracks and bam water leakage. so im guessing alot of these techs are lazy which i know a lot and they are at times. and dont care. so they do the old fashioned "good n tight" method seams reasonable not:thumbdown:

They won't lemon law a car over the tail light condensation, end of story.

There was another member local to me who I heard was heading in to have the tail light replaced for a 3rd time also, and I was about to advise him to perhaps consider to Lemon... But then I took that idea back because it really and truly may not be worth the mental hassle and time away from truly enjoying this great sports car... This is the truth, I feel.

OP, I completely understand your frustration... Just let it go, and let Toyota go ahead and cure the situation, and make sure that they attend to it accurately this time around by perhaps keeping in touch with Scion's Corporate Office in order to make sure they're with you all the way on this specifically. I'm very positive they want to make certain that you're happy at the end... Just give them that chance.

Don't let this minor issue which has popped up a few times get in the way with your ownership experience... It's not worth stressing over, and I hope you will indeed give the car a opportunity to be enjoyed thoroughly through its life with you. My FR-S has some small issues, as well... But I'm afraid of sacrificing even a day of my ownership due to being in the dealer's service shop... I'd rather enjoy it fully, despite the first-year hiccups. And I already know that I will likely trade-up for an updated version / model year later down the road anyway. For now, this car is meant to be enjoyed, and I hope you will feel the same way too.

All the best, frsinpa. :)

I think that when there are others in the forum that have had CEL issues, this (while tremendously annoying and disappointing) may seem like small potatoes. I am by no means trivialising your issue. I would be super frustrated as well.

Keep pushing up the chain of command - corporate if you have to. You are obviously not alone in this and those of us early adopters need to ensure that the issue gets the proper attention that it deserves so that another poor sap doesn't end up in the same boat down the road.

Fight the good fight. It is the right thing to do.

I think it would qualify for substantially impairing use. Say you do have to bring it to the dealer once a month for taillight. That's 1 day for them to look at it and 1 day to install. 2 days per month. I drive to work 20 days per month. That's 10% of commute days interrupted.Or if you want to look at it the other way, you have say 8 to 10 days off per month so that is 20 - 25% of your free days ruined by going to the dealer.

Maybe you can call someone above the dealer and complain, see where that gets you?

I have the condensation in my lights since the first month but I haven't bothered to go fix it yet since like you I don't really have much time for that nonsense. Hopefully when I do go, it's only once.

I'm all for taking a piece of shit back to the manufacture, but if I enjoyed a car so much and something like replacing a tail light(for free) was the issue between making it a lemon I would have to strongly reconsider if that isn't the only issue I really have.

I can almost assure you the problem lies with your dealership. The TSB in regards to the tail light specifically mentions which screws to turn first, and how much screwing needs to be done. $100 says they ignored the text instructions and just looked at the picture. Think about it, how hard is it to put a tail light assembly back in place? Why would you even bother "reading" the text? It only goes in one way, and has holes and screws.

Now then, you need to talk to at least two people at the service bay: the service manager and the guy who is actually going to install it(who will swear up and down he READ the instructions but clearly didn't). Tell them the screws need to be turned in a specific order or the problem will happen again.

As others have pointed out "substantially impairs" is going to be the key language. You would have a clear cut case if the car was literally undrivable. I think you would also have a good argument if the condensation prevented the rear light from illuminating. Pennsylvania law requires that every vehicle "shall have at least one red stop lamp on each side of rear of vehicle, which shall be illuminated immediately upon application of the service brake." 67 Pa.Code. S175.66(e). If your rear light can't do this then the car would be unable to abide by Pennsylvania law and this would be a clear example of substantially impairs. Furthermore, your car would simply not pass inspection and you would not be legally able to drive your vehicle. No judge would rule against you if that was the case.

However, if your rear lights are still illuminating and are clearly visible (but maybe a even a little cloudy) I don't see a judge ruling that the condensation substantially impairs.

I would give the dealership a few more bites of the apple before hiring an attorney. I would even take my car to another dealership to try and fix the problem. It might be an annoyance but it's better than paying a couple hundred dollars in consultation fees.

I see very little chance of you getting the car lemon law over this. Your car is not prolonged in the shop, like the CEL issue. It is an in and out thing.

Good luck.

There is no way this car will get lemon law'd over the tail light condensation. Many other cars have this defect as well and they are all still on the road (Pretty much every mid-90s GM car).

No matter what the OP thinks, this is NOT a major defect.

Also why won't the OP toss up some pics? I have condenstaion in my left tail light but it has never been even close to enough to keep another driver from seeing my tail light/brake light/or signal indicators.

Get those light changed, spend 10$ on silicon or pay somebody and fix it for good.

That's way easier and quicker than going with the lemon law. I can't beleive someone would make a fuss about this to this extend.

Different tail light, different issue.

It has to be repaired at least 3 times.

Well that (bolded) couldn't be further from the truth. There are so many fanboys in here this forum is in a perpetual state of agreement.

However a lot of people here are reasonable and would 1. Ignore this issue, 2. Fix it themselves.

Especially if it's not dangerous.

My wife's Focus which was in the shop 3 times for transmission issues (which was dangerous, as it locked up and jerked at speed) was finally fixed the 3rd time. We would have tried to lemon it if it didn't work out, but we sold it to a family member and it was totaled (not due to the transmission, just driver error).

I guess if you want to go through the hassle of lemoning the car, you'd have to prove that 2 separate tail lights are a singular thing.

@OP. I do not know if you will have any luck with the Lemon Law but I agree that over time condensation in the taillight assembly could become a safety issue if it causes corrosion and/or taillight failure. You have every right to be mad as hell about having these type of recurring issues with a brand new car. Good luck.

Definately understand the frustration although have been very lucky with my FRS. I once had a convertible car where the top malfunctioned at least 4 or 5 times. The dealership understood the frustration and offered to take the car back in trade for a different car. They gave me a decent deal due to the problems. You may want to consider this option.