I Spent the Weekend Driving my FR-S in Snow - Insight
 

First, it should be noted that I have no nothing to 'winterize' my car. I have the tires from the factory in addition to a drop-in filter and muffler delete. Onto the purpose of this thread; I was hanging out at the mall with my friend and it started to snow, thankfully the day only got colder and the snow started to stick to the roads...I was so excited. I was eventually able to find a wet parking lot with not a single car in it. Subsequently, I turned off the traction so that I could drift around and really see how the car behaved. Moreover, I was EXTREMELY surprised with just how little grip the tires on a cold, wet surface. It was possible to spin around in second gear with no more than a half to quarter amount of throttle input.

After that, it really started to snow and I had to drive back towards Boulder with about 2 inches on the surface. There the car did quite will, though I decided to leave traction control on but I was still able to drive at 65mph with no issues.

Hhow it looked mid-snow storm before it really started to stick:
http://i.imgur.com/fIy8g.jpg

Now the fun part: So I decided to keep driving around and enjoying myself when the snow really started to pile up. A nice layer of ice formed with about 3 inches of snow on top of that. I was quite amazed at how the traction control worked from that point on. It certainly would slow the rear tires from spinning when letting the clutch out or just giving the car ample throttle while in gear, but it was quite ineffective in stopping a slide. In some instances it almost made it worse by jabbing the brakes and locking the rear wheels. I actually went around a turn at no more than 5mph and the traction control did nothing to stop a lengthy slide.

The following day, it was 21 degrees out and I was able to find yet another vast open expanse of pavement and really have some fun. Yet again, I was quite stunned by the absolute lack of traction there was. Clearly, this can be due to a million factors, but at the end of the day the standard tires do not provide sufficient grip to be *that* safe, in my opinion, on a completely snowy surface. Sadly I was unable to film my juvenile activities, but I wanted to share my experience with everyone else since I've yet to read any real reviews about driving in the snow. At the same time, let me add that I was indeed able to drive as I would my accord, though there was just a bit less sense of security. Overall, the car did better than I expected, though it was eye-opening as I've never really driven a rwd coupe in snow.

Lastly, here are two other pictures I took over the weekend of a badass and well preserved 1976 4spd Toyota Corolla (I would murder for this)

http://i.imgur.com/nxjHx.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/s2zqL.jpg

Thanks for the input. The lack of traction has more to do with the tires than the RWD coupe part though. Put on a set of snow tires and you should do much better.

Exactly, the tires have do a lot to do with it. I was just trying to make the point that I had also never driven this type of car in the snow before.

Do you have the Michelin or the Bridgestone tires? Mine came with Bridgestone all-season tires from the factory.

that would make a difference.

Micheln Primacy = summer tires = little to no grip in the winter.
Bridgestone all seasons = at least acceptable grip in winter.

I have the Micheln Primacy tires, I should have noted that; silly me.

I lived your experience many years ago with a brand new Miata. Car would not move out of the driveway on the stock tires. Set of Blizzacks and all was good.

Step 1: Buy proper winter tires
Step 2: Enjoy winter driving! :D

Did you skid around with the OEM michellin tires? :O
Those things skid around like crazy even on dry pavement :D

You drove 65 mph with 2 inches of snow on the ground on summer Primacy tires? Be careful out there!

Like I said in my most, that really wasn't as bad as it sounded. It was quite slushy, it was only bad when that slush later froze and snow accumulated atop. I can assure you I would not spill it like the 350 Nismo that went off the highways this weekend near here.

I drove in the snow here in NJ and the car handled really well. I had upgraded to Goodyear F1 asymmetric all-season tires and I'm very happy that I did. The stock all-season tires sucked ass.

Sounds like fun... I'm waiting to hear from some of the folks in Western Canada who got some big snow this weekend. Love the Corolla...my Grandma had one like that when I was little.

any snow out your way to check those "turanzas" out?

Funny you ask... its snowing tonight. But it's the first of the year so it's no where near ready to stick to the roads. It was just 60degrees this weekend.

Yeah, it went from 70 degrees yesterday to below freezing all day today. We got some snow in the morning but obviously it didn't stick since the ground was still wet and warm.

The skinny tires on the twins will help. I would also recommend deflatting your rear tires and adding some weight to your rear end if you plan on driving in the snow in the future. The FR-S is my daily driver and I will be gambling by not investing in a solid pair of winter tires but I intend on doing exactly what you did. Wait for snow fall, go and have a blast, then winterize if necessary. So hate to say it but come on global warming!

you should be ok with the turanzas!..scion started to send those over commencing with the august build cars i believe!

This is good news for me. Now all I need is some one's report on the stock all-seasons.

Well, In Il we also got our first snow last night. It was pretty hard for about 30 minutes, but stopped pretty quickly as well.

The temperature dropped a little more, and although the snow didn't stick, it caused what fell to form black ice on the tollway I take home (294). I was on the road about 45 minutes after the snow stopped, and there were police and emergency vehicles everywhere.

I'm guessing because it was such a light, centralized snow they didn't send the salt trucks out prior to the snow. I was doing about 60 when I hit my first patch of black ice. It was a small one, but it claimed 5 cars, 2 south bound, and 3 north bound.

On the next onramp, the salt trucks started pulling on, and were in front of me. I had to swerve around them and speed up so they would stop peppering my car with rock salt. I had figured the worst of it was done.... but it wasn't.

About a half mile later I hit a patch that was about a 1/4 mile long. This strip claimed easily another 10-15 cars, including 2 state patrol cars. I had slowed to about 50 because I saw the flashing lights ahead before I hit the patch.

The car skittered and danced a little, but nothing that wasn't manageable. I also held the wheel to make sure it didn't turn at all and upset the balance. The car rode through it like a champ. There was a little bit of sideways movement, but nothing too harsh.

Looks like it's almost time for winter rubber.

I also have the Michelin all seasons.

michelins are NOT all-season tires!
they are summer performance tires.

Ill just leave these videos here. First one is the best!
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elP_34ltdWI&feature=related"]Winter Tyres v Summer Tyres: the Truth! - Auto Express - YouTube[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGfvyPtYR0Y"]Tire Rack Tire Test - All-Season vs. Winter Tires - YouTube[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlYEMH10Z4s&feature=relmfu"]Tire Rack Tire Test - Winter/Snow vs. All-Season vs. Summer Tires on Ice - YouTube[/ame]

These are good comparison videos. My only thing is, the roads here very rarely look like that. It can happen, but it's extremely rare. I know, better safe than sorry, but I've never needed winter tires on any of my cars. Neither has anyone else in my family, including my brother with a rear-wheel drive tacoma. I'll probably still end up with some on the FR-S though, just because I really don't feel like putting it in a ditch.

I had to take my car out in heavier snow in Edmonton, AB Canada to make a trip to get my exhaust on. needless to say I experienced the exact same lack of traction as you o the Michelin Primacy summers. Scariest thing I've done in a vehicle in a long time.

As the first video goes through. As long temperature is below 7 degres (Celcius), 44,5 (Fahrenheit) winter tires are better. The closer you get to freezing point the larger the difference becomes. But if you're winter conditions mostly consist of 44,5 Fahrenheit or warmer, without any driving on snow, than summer tires would do fine.

In proper hard packed snow grip is quite good (with winter tires). Its temperatures around the freezing point where things could get scary and you could get into some very slippery conditions.

Where I come from its illegal with summer tires in winter conditions and you could loose you're licence.

What temperature are the all-seasons good till? I don't have summer tires on my car.

-Winter tires are made for winter and colder conditions ONLY. Not summer
-Summer tires are made summer conditions. Should not be driven on snow and is not recommended to drive where temperatures are around freezing point.
-All seasons are just a compromise between the two. Some manufacturers/tire models lean a little more towards winter or summer than others, but generally its just a compromise in the middle.
I've never owned or driven on all seasons (its not normal here). Its common sense to use winter tires here (even tough winters are mild and not very snowy at all many places). As far as I have read and heard, most all season tires start getting worse compared to winter tires from about 7/44,5 degress (Celsius/Fahrenheit, just like summer tires. But they will not worsen that quickly. There is no "good till" temperature as far as I have heard of. That would kinda defeat the "all-season" concept. They just perform OK in both winter and summer conditions. Its a compromise.

Here in New Zealand, we only get summer, or if you are lucky/rich, all season tyres, even though we have similar weather to Europe/US on the bottom half of the south island.

Most people don't even know snow tyres exist :(

Here is the official government pamphlet:
http://www.nzta.govt.nz/resources/wi...s-pamphlet.pdf

There was an accident in 2011 due to snow tyres and the coroner wanted them banned in NZ:
http://www.scene.co.nz/a/292950a1.page
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/5752...res-ridiculous


If you want to tour New Zealand, don't do it in winter.

So basically. Someone crashed with winter tires in late summer. Where those tires are not supposed to be used.
2 other cases used (worn?) winter tires on one axle and summer tires on another.. They managed to crash.
And therefore the tires needs to be banned??
In Norway the drivers would have lost their licence for endangering other people driving with tires like that.

What about just making normal simple rules. Winter tires only in winter, or else get a big ticket/fine.
Driving with totally different tires on different axles is just stupidity.

Something else that works well and would be a good alternative on the All Season Turanzas is siping. I don't think siping the michelins would work/ be a good alternative though.

Winter tires could be better. Not necessarily better.

I'm fairly certain that at temps above freezing, but on dry asphalt, OEM summer Michelins are still better than X-Ice3/Blizzaks etc. All those micro-cuts that enhance ice grip end-up being too soft at those temps and compromise dry grip.

It would take some serious temps below freezing for Ice&Snow-type winter tires to best decent A/S rubber on a dry cold highway. Around 7C I&S winter tires will suck in the dry, and that needs to be taken into account, adjusting following distances, braking effort etc.

so winter tire = snow/ice
and summer = dry/rain
temperature is negligible?

Based on my experience the differences are subtle in the dry when temperature is low, but on the + side. But on wet, there is not doubt winter tires are better, especially in cold (above freezing point) conditions. And on snow, there is a ton of grip difference.

That is not true. Winters are very mild where I live. Lots of rain. Daytime temperature is this week around 5-10 degrees. With my current car, I come from Michelin Pilot Super Sport to some mediocre/decent winter tires (got them from the dealer, did not choose myself). The grip difference in dry 7 degrees +/- conditions are quite small. And I have one "medium speed sweeper hill" with two turns as reference point for speed that I have used the last 8 years.
Not sure what type of tires you are used to if winter tires suck at 7 degrees. But my current winter tires (typical EU tires) tires work very good. And the typical "nordic winter tires" I normally use does not have any issies with grip either. And they are often softer compound suited better for snow/ICE conditions than the typical winter tires in EU. Never had any issues or complain with the grip level compared to performance or touring summer tires in.
For the record. Speed limit is 50km/h (30mph) at "my reference test place". With winter tires I have to do 85-90km/h to reach the grip levels in damp conditions. About 80 when very wet. In dry I can push to about 95. With performance tires in the summer I wont push much past 100 in dry conditions.
For the record, I would loose my licence at 76. Thrust me, winter tires work sufficient even in dry with some temperature! Running out if grip in dry conditions is the last thing I would worry about.

You experience is void then. There are plenty of tests out there.

Here, have a read
Few pages back from Xi2s - there are some results for A/S tires, and HP A/S, which would be similar to our OEM Michelins.

At 23F Xi2 absolutely SUCK in the dry/wet.
Their PA3, the "performance winter" tires, still lose to HP A/S.

And winter Michelins are good winter tires, on par with leading tires in it's class for I&S. PA3's were somewhat subpar, so I can imagine that something like Wintersports 4D could be a hair better in the wet/dry than these, but not by much.

So, I repeat- winter tires (especially "Ice and Snow" ones, that is Xi2/Xi3, Hakka R, ws60-70, Conti EWC) are not a silver bullet, they come with decreased dry grip, that one needs to take into account.

No! :paddle:

First so everyone is clear, this car is unlike 99% of new cars, as it comes STOCK with SUMMER tires from the factory. 99% of new cars come with all seasons.

Summer tires - tread NOT designed for snow. Rubber type will HARDEN as temps go under 40 degrees. The colder, the worse traction you'll have - dry or wet. And the tread sucks for trying to find traction on snow.

Winter tires - tread designed for snow. Rubber designed for low temps. In the dry, traction isnt what you're used to in the summer with summer tires - but at temps below 40, winter tires will have better traction wet or dry than summer.

All seasons - jack of all trades, master of none. Designed to be performance, economy, great in water, whatever. Each tire is different. Some are decent in snow, others not great. But at temps under 40, all seasons will have more traction wet or dry than BOTH summer or winter tires. Now in the snow, they won't have as aggressive tread pattern so won't grip as well as winter tires. In the summer, rubber compound wont be as soft as summer tires and won't grip like summer tires can.

Now important to note - stock tires are weird summer tires! Most summer tires are designed for higher traction (in the warm months). The Primacy's have "medium" traction in the summer. Designed with LESS grip for more economy (less friction = more mpg = less cornering grip, but fun to slide.). Replacing stock summer tires with something like Dunlop Star Specs would drop your mpg a bit, wear faster, but give you a lot more grip in the corners during the summer.

The stock Primacy's are weird. You can probably find an all season tire with more grip in the summer, and still be usable in the winter - so it would have better traction in any condition (if you find the right all season tire).

No point in me making arguments about dry grip performance than.
I have probably defied laws of physics with winter tires in the dry so many times that physics don't count for me anymore. Its what happen when your nick is "RaceR".. :D

But in wet and snow we probably agree! ;)

Our roads have been covered completely with packed snow and ice, and the car is a hoot. I have studded snows though. Still mildly speeding.

Do we? Per my link, wet @23F, 60-0 braking:
Xi2: 174ft
PA3: 145ft
Some A/S: 140ft
HP A/S: 139ft.

HP A/S would be similar to Michelin OEM. Those are usually almost summer tires, with barely enough grip to qualify as A/S tires.

Why bother with assumptions on how summer tires work compared to winter in wet conditions based on all seasons tires.

Ill post this video once more if you did not bother to watch it. Wet road testings starts at 2.58
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=elP_34ltdWI
Backs out what I have found out myself many years ago and something that I get verification of every winter season. Winter tires are better in wet conditions. Come visit me if you need a real life demonstration when testing cornering speeds! :)
Even with the results in Whatcar down below, i still consider real life differences between summer and winter tires to be small in cold conditions based on the roads I drive on (not very smooth tarmac). Could show you that too if you visited when doing cornering tests.

If you want a proper winter tire test. Check out the links below and use google translate. Thrust me, its in another league in terms of winter tire testing compared to all other tests im aware of. They are testing winter tires with and without studs.
http://www.naf.no/Alle-saker/NAF-eks...dekktest-2012/
http://www.naf.no/Alle-saker/NAF-eks...-testdisiplin/

Comparison between summer and winter tires. Test also include primacy HP.
http://www.whatcar.com/car-news/wint...repared/259257
In the dry they find summer tires to have an advantage. But their verdict:
For those who thinks the stock summer tires on the GT86 are good in snow. Check this out:
http://www.whatcar.com/NonCar/Volksw...9111153911.jpg

I kind of have to get winter tires. Iive in Oregon where we have a very mild winter normally but live up on a hill... where it goes downhill then does a 90 degree turn banked towards a curb at the bottom... they also don't rock, sand, or salt it.

:( there goes $500.