Airbags ... seriously
 

So before you guys start flaming, I was (and still am) in the camp of believing that air suspension, airbags, etc. were for all-show no-go people. I don't want to ruin the handling of the FRS, but I'm not a hardcore track guy either.

After returning back from SEMA and having already known about Airrex (cool dudes)... I found another company Air Lift that's based here in the U.S.

I was wondering if anyone had any REAL information as both systems are marketed as race/track-capable systems.

I want airbags because of where I live. I want to go lower to kill some wheel gap and I might want to do a nice lip kit, but I've never lowered any of my cars because I always scrape somewhere somehow on stock height anyways. I can't even visit some friends because their driveways are sketchy.

Main point, will these type of systems be okay for the track? What are the pros and cons? Is this just marketing hype? What do you guys think. I know there are a few of you on air, so if you would chime in, that'd be awesome!

Basically... I'm stuck between coilovers and probably leaving at stock height or a tad lower... or air suspension.

Airrex

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphoto...97820049_n.jpg

Air Lift

http://cdn.speedhunters.com/wp-conte...otlight-12.jpg

Here you can watch this video of an STi on bags during the Ultimate track car challenge.. I've seen some camaros on bags running a second faster

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ScCHuaCLrM

Yeah watched that earlier, and actually talked to one of the main guys who helped build that car at SEMA. REALLY cool dude from Air Lift. He had the same mentality as me when building cars so I really appreciated the things he addressed (such as misconceptions of air suspensions from the 90s n such). I just wanted to know if any one had any first hand experience to weigh in with.

Yeah I dont buy it and never have, but if you want to hella slammed look I guess there is no other way to go. It seems like its not that bad for tracking anymore, but I just don't see how if you want the best handling setup out there that airbags are the way to go... Im sure i will be challenged on this though vOv

I have first hand experience with airbags, but not on a track. All I know is my airrex/elevel setup on my sti handled way better than my bc coils I had previously. Granted BC's are a lower end coilover, but thats all I have to compare them to.

This forum isn't a place to really gather information on bags. Most of the attitudes towards bags are going to be negative and you will get uniformed people trying to bash a product they have no experience with.

I suggest heading over to vwvortex.com and checking out their air suspension forums, or hit up John from Bagriders, Andrew from ORT, or Brian from AirLift. Yes they will be more for bags since they all use them, but most of them have been on other suspension setups outside of air and can provide better details for what your looking for.

I can attest to the rest of your post though. I too was sick of trying to get over bumps, get in ridiculous driveways, or just driving around low in general. My "driving" height was high enough to clear all of that, while being able to lower it down for the slammed look I wanted.

As long as the car and bags are set up properly, its going to handle incredible. People often think bags have a "boat" like handling aspect to them, which is only true when you set up one line for two bags (example, running ONE switch to control both front wheels, and one for the rear. So you would flip the switch up and it would lift the whole front end up. You would have to tee off the line to do this, and when you cornered, the air would transfer from bag to bag and create that "float" feeling).

As long as you have a proper setup, I can promise you will think of bags in a completely different way.

I would actually agree with most of that xxscaxx. I'm still not a fan though. BUT like I said, if you want the slammed look, they are probably the only way to go and still be able to have a decent handling car when you want to track it.

I'm sure a proper, high end coilover setup will outperform an air setup. Then again, I can't comment because I have no firsthand experience lol. Like you said though, if you want both, air is the way to go.

It would be interesting to see someone actually test both with equal rates comprehensibly.

Though air bags have a certain reputation, I don't see why they would be any worse than springs when set up properly. Granted, you can't have a linear-rate airbag, but a well designed bag should work just fine in a performance application.

I think a big issues is that airbags in the past were never designed for performance. So they were likely designed with softer skins which keeps the rates low and comfortable. But it sounds like these companies are designing them for performance applications.

I'm curious about a couple things though:

1. How are the dampers handled? Are the bags just spring replacements, or is it a bag/damper combo?

2. Does the system have ride-height sensors? Would the driver be able to have pre-sets so it's easier to switch between different ride heights (i.e. City, Highway, Track)?

3. How would this system compare in price to a set of coilovers?

The thing is, if someone is just concerned with clearing speed bumps and transitions there are kits out there that can add 2" of on-demand lift to existing coilovers, giving you the best of both. So there are some hurdles a performance airbag system would have to overcome. But I'd be interested to see how these work out.

I've been on Airrex for about a month and a half now and so far I've been loving it. The design of the of the shock/bag as well as seeing the Airrex FR-S from Hawaii on the track made me go forth on purchasing the kit even more so. I've been on a couple canyon runs with my 17's on and I can honestly say, this kit does NOT lack in the performance category. Also with Airrex you're able to move the strut higher and lower along with adjusting the dampening just like traditional coilovers. My next goal is to get some better tires, more suspension parts, and hit the track with a gopro. :party0030:

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_md...jkco1_1280.jpg

1. It is generally for these sorts of applications a bag/shock combo in one piece much like a coil over

2. Yes, all higher end electronic management kits you programmed height sensors

3. Similar to a high end coil over. $2500 will be the entry price and go up from there

Thanks, yeah... I figured I should do that... but then I probably won't get that much FRS specific information either and I wanted to try here first.

Yeah, I saw your car on the drive from Scion to SEMA, but you were always busy talking to someone and I didn't want to bother you to show me a demo. I was dead tired too haha. Hopefully next meet up, I will get to see it in action and you can tell me your impressions.



Thanks guys for the responses. I really liked the interface on the Air Lift setup and the Airrex seems to be semi-track proven... so I really am up in the air about this... no pun intended... maybe. :bellyroll:

The old bags gave them a bad rep. The new stuff from reputable makers like Air Runner are very similar to the systems in the new AMG cars.

http://www.jadecrew.com/wp-content/g...t-assembly.jpg

The kit that I got for my Y34 was amazing built. They had full on brand new struts with dampening. The kit handled fantastically.

The new stuff is far from the old style bags.

I know a thing or two about air management. Airlift management is ok if you want cheap management, but if you want the best bang for your buck and the easiest operation and best features you should go with accuair management.I currently am running Accuair E-level (with I level) on air lift bags on my mkvi GTI. The E-level uses four sensors placed on the corners of the car to calculate how much pressure is required to make all four corners stay at the programed height. Lets say your friend gets in the car or you throw groceries in the back, the sensors will calculate how many PSI should be added to bump it back up to that same height. Give it 30 seconds and it will automatically adjust. Another cool feature is the start up and go, so you air your car out for the night and you go to leave in the morning. Simple, you just turn the car on and it automatically airs up.

As far as bags, airlift makes a good set up but obviously fails in comparison to something as tested as a airrex set up. Airrex bags are basically proven on their race car. While air runner is pretty good as well i would go with airrex IMO.

As far as cost is concerned you would be looking right around $4000 for a very solid setup, you could get a switchspeed setup for around the $3500 range but for the features of E-level and the ease of use i would highly recommend it.

I had the eLevel as well (still do actually, sitting in my room lol) and you are spot on with its ease of use and functionality.

I don't have experience with AirLift on a strut level but they also do test their setups on a track. Their 500whp STi has been tested extensively on their struts.

The reason right now they haven't released their kit is because they have to test the kits on three separate vehicles for a standard timespan before releasing the kit for public resale. I can appreciate that as a buyer.

I had AirRex on my STi so I am not favoring one side, but just figured i'd mention it.

Just get coilovers. Less hassle and cost.

I do love airlift bags but seeing how airrex has a tried and true race car on bags I would go with them. Airlift has an amazing product overall from my own experience especially drifting a bagged mustang. Airrex overall is generally going to be more expensive as opposed to air lift. It's mainly quality in my opinion

Coils are more of a hassle then bags.

Somebody should come up with electronically adjustable coil-overs, it would be quite interesting and technically simple.

OMG I've been wanting to ask you guys for info on airbags but didn't wanna get bashed! I really don't wanna track my car so much and really love the Hellaflush scene. I was hoping Ksport would release a air ride system as those I kno can still adjust dampening. Where I live there's lots of uneven surfaces and I just wanna be able to get around town without worrying bout my car being too low! Definetely glad I'm not the only one who feels the same!

I wanna say Ksport air ride is electronically adjusted too depending on kit level. They have in cabin controller and a remote control that goes on key chain!

I meant hassle as in terms of reliability. There's a lot less to go wrong with coils because they've been tried and tested. Bags on the other hand are more complex and have more failure points.

I don't wanna civic Hellaflush! I want my BRZ Hellaflush lol! I knew I'd get bashed lol!! O well kick me off and let me hit my switches in peace! I just wanna be able to pull off the low stance and not fuk up my car's undercarriage, is that really so bad! Don't hate me! Promise I'll still autoX my car and take it to the track!

You won't hellaflush a car without scars. Most gets scars even at stock height :slap: You gotta pay to play.

Doesn't matter. You'll end up looking like an idiot if you take a hellaflusher to an AutoX or an HPDE, and everyone will laugh at you. Use your BRZ like it was meant to be used. I bet Tada-san would have a heart attack if he listened to what you are planning to do.

Have a good day, and try not to eat any more scented markers. :bonk:

there are always options...


http://kw-suspension.com/us/kw_hls.php

Only things that ever go wrong with bags is you may wear a hole in it if you ride to low.

Geez look lik an idiot? R u sure? I guess I don't really care if people don't wanna be my friend cause I like it low n flush. O well... guess I'd be losing out on some great friends who'd laugh at me.
As far as those KW HLS system that's awesome! Gonna look more into it. I def don't want a lowrider system just somethin to take over obstacles and park it low! Thanks

not necessarily riding too low, its not making sure you have clearance around the bag and it rubbing somewhere.

The first one or two times I set mine up I didn't place the air line well enough and it rubbed, but since I was anal about the setup I caught it before anything could happen.

Not going to lie, being able to lift the car all the way up to get the jack underneath it and to clean out the fender wells when washing it is reason enough to love an air setup :lol:

Spot on my friend.

Bags are just springs in the end. The parts I'm not a fan of are the added weight, complexity, and extra space taken up by the air setup.

People also have a decent amount of problems with air bag setups in cold weather.

I personally would never use air bags on the track, not sure if mentioned already but there are just way too many things that could go wrong with an air bag system if you are going 100+mpg into a turn:

1. Air bag possibly getting a hole
2. Air line kinking
3. Air compressor going out
4. Electrical system to the air going out

All of these you can simply avoid by going with coilovers on the track, there is a reason why coilovers are used and not airbags.

Air bags are VERY durable, but not something I would take the risk of using on the track no matter who is marketing it and cruising around on the track with them.

ANOTHER option would be air cups, they still utilize your coilovers just with an air cup set up where the upper spring hat would be so you can raise and lower your vehicle.

-Jade

say bye bye $6k

Rims? Because this car is effing secks.

Hatres gonna hate that's all there is to it. Call me an idiot but the two guys given me crap don't even have a car of this forum which makes it more hilarious. Roll hard in your Camry and keep dreaming of owning one of these nice cars you can eventually build to UR liking and not others!
I hope not to scrap up my car either underneath, that's really the whole reason to get a system so u don't. Otherwise Id just stick with coilovers. Unfortunately I don't live on a race track where the road are flat an even for lowered cars. So a air ride system would suit My needs for daily use.
Generally I believe if more airride systems were cost efficient I believe there would be more people rockin them. Let's be honest. CanibeatNoel stated his ride quality did not diminish and his car looks sick so low.
Just my thoughts tho...

Get the air ride Godzilla!!! U won't be upset when ur goin over speed bumps!

False. All you need to do is to add air-brake antifreeze in the tank and none of the lines will freeze.

all your points are null because if you set an air system up properly none of these things can happen. The only thing that could fail is the compressor but that wouldn't effect the strut anyway unless you had a leak and needed to refill. Also, not every air system is an electrical one.

air cups are an option but very expensive. You are talking about 1100 bucks a CUP. They only offer a 3" adjustment as well. I looked into those, hehe.

Yeah, people don't do that because they are lazy. Valves freeze up as well, moisture in the system which is inevitable causes problems. I know it's just normal maintenance but I've read numerous stories about issues both with OE systems and aftermarket ones.

Bags have the stigma of being for appearance only. This may be true in the past, but there's no reason performance bags can't exist on the market. Coilovers are traditional, and they work, and there's little reason to fix what ain't broke unless you want to simply make progress and innovate.

An air bag is just an air spring. It's more difficult to "tune" the air spring because bladder diameter, plunger diameter, pressure, volume, etc all play a factor in how the the "spring" does it's thing. Secondly, a good coilover is only as good as it's damper. Right? This can be true for bags as well. The only difference is that the air is much more progressive as it's compressed, so the stroke is far from linear. Air springs are not new. They've typically been used for show and because quick customization can be a little more difficult, the performance market doesn't pay them much mind. There's no reason this can't change.

I am not interested in purchasing bags and truly DGAF about "stance", but I can wholeheartedly appreciate technological innovation.

First off, there are a lot of really valid points and I hope to get people with more first-hand knowledge, like Noel to chime in. Maybe I will direct the engineers of Airrex and Air Lift to this thread once I get some time.

The main thing is that I was impressed with Air Lift's new iPad / iPhone interface... and the fact that they are based in the U.S. Airrex... although their product does look good... is made in Taiwan I think. At least that's what it said on their SEMA booth. Customer service may be a bit tough with the company being so far away.



There are. Look up Robuerta cups (spelling?) that fit onto Top Secret Japan coilovers. Also, I believe KW always had a kit for lambos and such... and they have the new technology that couples with some of their V3 and up models, but it's pricey and the applications are limited right now to cars like the new 991 Porsche. If that's the case... I'd rather just "live with" RSR coils.


Yeah, I saw that when it was featured on Speedhunters I believe.


Yeah... but as much as I'd like to say I'm the next Stig... I'm not. I want to go to the track, don't get me wrong... but I just want to daily drive my FRS without worrying about it scraping. Stock height already gets me nervous, so when I get my wheels... that's when I'll be freaking out. I want to track it to get some drifting lessons and minor track experience... but when I go all-out, I'll most likely take my other car.

Yeah, but I might be upset when I'm in a corner. (balance pun... two puns in one thread... I might get banned).


Keep the discussion going! :thumbsup: