Tracked Comparison: FRS and BRZ
 

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Should I read on?...
In this thread I share my experience of tracking an FRS and a BRZ. Both bone stock, both MT.

Preamble
I know this is not the first thread like this, but I thought it still might be useful to share. The other post did compare an AT BRZ with an MT FRS. It's a great post and I share many of the same views. http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16134

Anyway, earlier this week, the organizer of the Driver's Edge www.thedriveredge.net e-mailed me and said he was short of instructors for this weekend at Motor Sport Ranch Houston. I'm getting ready to drive up to Hallett Raceway this week, so was going to pass, but didn't have much to do, so I decided that I would go and take the BRZ rather than my Spec Miata.

MSR Houston is a 2.3 mile track with 17 turns. http://msrhouston.com/pdfs/RoadCourse-corners.pdf
It's has technical sections, high speed corners and some long straights. We ran Clockwise.

I've already driven the BRZ on a different track (Texas World Speedway), but haven't driven at MSRH. The car was extremely impressive at this track.

Also at the event was a Red FRS, owned by Sonny ("Texas FRS"). We talked for a while and mused the differences of the cars. Sonny was kind enough to let me drive his car with him as a passenger, then I took him for a ride in my BRZ. We're both still grinning.

FRS vs BRZ
The cars are definately different. Both are bone stock, and both were manual. Sonny's seemed a bit cleaner than mine :-)

I'm not going to surprise anyone by saying that the FRS does have an oversteer tendency and the BRZ understeer - we all know that. For most drivers, you are really going to only notice this on the limit. The BRZ has a more planted feel, particularly in the higher speed corners such as T2 the carousel. I could comfortably nail the throttle to the floor and the car hunkered down and gave me great confidence. The FRS was a little more twitchy in the same corner.

On some of the slower off camber corners T17-T16, the FRS was delightful to drive. The slight step-out of the rear was easy to control and fun to feel. In the same corner, the BRZ was better behaved and able to keep a tidier line, but not quite as smile inducing.

The BRZs understeer was really noticable is turns 11 and 9, where the FRS was much more flickable.

Both cars had good poise and balance in braking and excellent transition into corners. Both car are brilliant to drive and extremely fun.

Power is usable everywhere, except for one corner - the exit of the slow Diamonds Edge or T4. Too fast for 2nd, too slow for 3rd. Everywhere else, power was good. I was able to hold race prepped cars with R-Comps through the technical parts of the track. I laughed to myself about the crappy tires on the car, yet how much grip there is.

But which one is the best?
If you are a novice to track, the BRZ is the better car, because is is very subtly more sure-footed than the FRS, but I loved the FRS. I am very comfortable with a car that has a little oversteer - that's how I setup my race car. And let's be clear here. The FRS is not a tail happy car. It's incredibly planted and has fantastic balance. I bought the BRZ over the FRS, due to the brand being a little more mature (I'm 44) and I love the Limited interior (budget wasn't my highest priority). I prefer the FRS front end over the BRZ. I prefer the relative rarity of the BRZ compared to FRS. I'm NOT a BRZ fanboy.

Who's the winner?
Well everyone. Both of these cars are so good. They are great cars to take to HPDEs and you will enjoy every lap. I fully agree with the everydaydriver review. It really does come down to your driving preference, but the reality is that my suspension won't stay stock for long, so the thing that is being discussed in this thread will have a short life anyway. That's most likely the case for most trackjunkies.

If you have an FRS or BRZ. Do yourself a favor, take it to the track at least once. Thank you Sonny.:happy0180:

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/attac...1&d=1347160767

Great little review. No BS and straight to the point.

Thanks for you view on the cars stock at a track I'm extremely familiar with. I really want to run MSR-H clockwise, every time I've been it was run counter-clockwise...

Based on what you said and the difference I've felt on the street, things change some when you switch to sticky tires for the FR-S; it's perfectly neutral and extremely stable everywhere on MSR-H (CCW). The stock seatbelts don't do a good job of keeping you in the seats though - definitely some Schroth Ralleye harnesses would be a good idea. I would love to feel how a BRZ compares on track (but not on stock wheel/tires...)

What do you think Randy Pobst means when he prefers the BRZ to the FR-S on track because the FR-S has more understeer? I haven't driven a BRZ, and on track I ran track orientated Extreme Street tires on my FR-S, so I don't know how it is stock on track. But it seems perfectly neutral to me with sticky tires and lightweight wheels for track; I do like highly sensitive cars that you drive with your fingertips and throttle control and the FR-S is perfect in that regard, but still absolutely planted at all speeds.

Did you take any video?

great review.

So when you upgrade your suspension in your BRZ, what are you aiming for?

Hi, Andy! :D

Thank you so much for sharing this and providing a solid & unbiased comparision between both of our cars.

I can't agree more on how each of our fellow owners owe it to themselves to attend at least one track day with their BRZ / FR-S!

I found out this past weekend with you: So much fun both our cars are overflowing with... :happyanim:

Good review. One thing worth mentioning is you can change the driving characteristics quite a bit with just an alignment and if cars are on stock alignments it's kind of a crapshoot what you might get.

I really haven't decided. I've done the whole daily driver/track car scene with an S2000 and moved to a dedicated track miata. I still need to decide on whether I go back the other way. The BRZ/FRS platform is making resistence very hard.

This weekend, I am taking my Miata to Hallett Raceway in OK. Emilio from 949 racing is going to be there. I want to spend some time with him and talk about the experience he had with the custom valved ASTs. He's been a real force in the Miata world and I would lean towards his solution in the FRS/BRZ world.

Thanks! I completely agree. The bits you can't change on this car are perfect. The rest is up to your desire and budget.

Secretly, your a BRZ fanboy at heart.

:)

Thanks for the review.

When you headed to Hallet and what car you bringing? I might make a surprise visit that day.

:thumbsup:

Awesome, Andy (ajay)... Your review (both of our cars tested by you) made it on this forum's homepage! :happyanim:

By the way, you and I agreed that Diamonds Edge (T4 as you mentioned) was a very tough / sharp turn to get our car(s) pushed out of quickly (crushed our momentum)... I actually found it of immense FUN when downshifting from 4th to 2nd right before, and then managing the throttle out like crazy! :bellyroll:

I could really feel the FR-S' tendency to oversteer there... But so much fun, and downshifting to 2nd gave me that extra push out of it, which was what I was needing... Had to be careful with managing the throttle, but it was great excitement and that turn became my favorite at Houston MSR going CW. :thumbup:

So if your looking for more of an oversteer setup what would need to be done to the suspension to achieve that?

Great post by the way:w00t:

Yeah! I guess... But I really just love the '86... Period!

Just got back. Awesome weekend... Miata event, so took the race car. I did get to talk to emilio of 949 racing about the FRS that he was helping to develop ASTs for, but that is all in the suspension thread.

BRZ :-)

Everything else I read said the opposite, that the FR-S was more neutral and that the BRZ had a tad more understeer dialed in but higher maximum grip. No?

It's really subtle. Both cars are planted. The BRZ has more turn in understeer, but will handle more gas through the corner. The FRS has a more neutral initial turn in, but as you apply the gas, it will turn to a subtle oversteer, making for a greater corner radius.

They are both supremely brilliant.

Agreed. The Top Gear magazine reviewer said the differences were nil. Most journalists are claiming a "definite and immediately recognizable difference" or something to that nature. I've kinda been figuring it's pretty subtle, albeit I haven't driven a BRZ yet.

Nathan

Drive what you brung!!!!

There is a whole pointless piece to this thread. Most track enthusiasts will change the suspension anyway, nuetralizing the differences. The thing about this car is the bits you can't easily change are perfect (driving position, center of gravity, weight distribution, lightness, etc...)

I repeat. Take it to the track... at least once.

Thanks for the review and insights into both cars. It seems the vast majority of owners are sooooo loving this car. Mine is a DD and I'm curious to see how it does in winter with snow tires on my daily commute. That is really my only concern (not a real concern, just wondering about it) with this car, lovin it so far.

Thanks for pointing this out! I haven't seen this mentioned in a comparison of the two yet, and you're absolutely right. If you intend to change the stock suspension setup, then there is no difference and you're better off choosing the car on which one you like the looks/amenities of the most. Great writeup!

You guys have to keep in mind that the minute you change your springs and dampers these subtle tendencies between the two cars won't be the same. The difference between the FR-S and BRZ are in it's spring/damper tuning. If you put aftermarket springs and struts or coil-overs in the car, you can make a BRZ handle like an FR-S or vice-versa. The 86/GT86 have different spring/damper rates from the FR-S and BRZ, too.

From the sound of it I'd like a setup like the BRZ initially until I get the hang of the car, and then would want to dial it in a bit more like the FR-S to have sharper response and a tad of oversteer.

^ Right.

Unless you plan on keeping the car bone stock, buy the model you want and then you can easily modify the suspension to drive how you want it. Swaybars, dampers/springs, coilovers, alignment, tires, etc. can all be changed and will all affect the balance, feel, and handling of the car.

Nice writeup though, gives a good idea of how the cars handle in general. Now try to avoid the mod bug ;)

Thanks for this review. The bench racers want to be able to say how their car will be faster given X mods, and Y driving conditions. ;)

I'm shopping FRS because I like the body style better, but I'm shopping BRZ because I like the features. Am I good enough of a driver to tell the difference in suspension set up? I'll likely never know, because Hawaii doesn't have a race track any more. :(

I am going to be annoying but I'm having a lot if buyers remorse over my brz. Ive started getting comfortable closer to its limits and I find myself really wishing the tail would pull out more at times. But I also like the idea of factory tuned handling and I'm worried putting frs Springs on my brz won't quite give me the pure perfected feeling of these cars from factory. I'm really close to trading in the brz for an frs, and I know too little about engineering of modern cars to be sure. For instance.. is the frs steering tuned at a software level to compliment the mechanical suspension? Or is the feel entirely from the mechanics? Is this all in my head and I'm so new I wouldn't notice the difference anyway? Does anyone else have a lot of time in both cars and can wiegh in at all?