really? not much has changed in 20 years.

yeah, just read that article yesterday

https://www.wired.com/story/growing-old-online/

Ah, these little kids are making fun of me eh? Well jokes on them because we're making LITTLE-ER kids who will make fun of THEM for being old soon.

Not true, everyone knows the Mazda BP is gods motor.

Was never featured in the Fast and Furious franchise so nobody knows it exists.

https://www.arrmaforum.com/attachmen...9-jpeg.117078/

In the traditional sense, we live in an age of sports car starvation. Loosening up the standards for today to include just about any 2 door car and things are looking "okay". Loosen up the standards to include any performance oriented 4 door and we're fat and happy...

Though personally I think it's 100% BS to consider anything a sports car that wasn't built from conception for that purpose, over all others.

but at the same time, bespoke chassis' just aren't happening anymore outside of the ultra custom/high end vehicles that tend to be unattainable to most people.

iirc, even the 86 chassis is a variant of the toyota TNGA platform

No it is not. This was the rumour started by the clickbait's back when the 2022 was still speculation. The 2022 chassis is just an updated and modified version of the first gen which was very loosely based upon the Impresa. It really is a bespoke chassis just using the base Subaru architecture.

"But at the same time" eh?

Uh yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying. And you can thank government regulations for that.

And the car buying public. The vast majority just are not interested enough for there to be a large selection of sportscars. Never were really. Easy to give long lists when looking at the past but really if you pick any 5 years period just how many actual sports cars were made all at the same time.

Disagree. Not even remotely that simple. Most of the "public" has been influenced/conditioned by automakers to want CUVs. They're more profitable to build and (most places at least) are judged/regulated less harshly by fuel efficiency regulations. Slam dunk for automakers.

"Don't buy a convertible or coupe to express individuality. Buy an off-road ready CUV!" (that most people will never take off pavement)

Throw in higher insurance rates and heavier cars thanks to regulations (a lot harder to differential the driving feel between a 3500 lb coupe and 4000 lb CUV, than if the coupe in question was 2500-3000 lb).

Ahhhh so it is all a conspiracy.
OK I now know this discussion is over as soon as that comes out.

No no, that's no conspiracy BS! CAFE has turned the US market into a vehicular bizzarro world. I was a big crusader against it (meaning I ranted on forums) back in the day when all I wanted in the world was a sporty station wagon.

(I wanted this video to be a link, can't figure out how to make it not be embedded.)
https://youtu.be/RCgnPfFr3gE

I guess I won't get too into it, but a quick search found at least one article:

https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/20...tation-wagons/

The short of it is CAFE enables a special environment for the Big Three to thrive in, where trucks and other big vehicles are given a huge advantage. 22mpg truck = a 45mpg station wagon, stuff like that. Good thing the Big Three can do giant trucks well, and profitably!

THAT SAID.. I honestly think it's just human nature that people want bigger badder vehicles. Industry (and government!) definitely helped people along in forming that opinion but I think it was mostly inevitable. Most Europeans don't WANT to be driving microcars.. or probably even station wagons for that matter. They just have to. So I put the CAFE tin foil hat away. It's still sad for the environment.

Sports cars are a different sociology topic all together I think. Many many people like them, but the percentage of those people that will consider actually buying one seems to be a function of culture and economy of the day more than anything. I have a feeling that when gen Z are in their late 20's to early 30's and can spend money, some weird stuff is going to happen.

It all boils down to what sells. All the governmental interference is just noise. If sports cars were big sellers they would make more sports cars. As you pointed out they have never been big sellers. EVER. The vast majority want practicability and that is what the companies cater to.
Have you ever drove in Europe? Saying that "most" Europeans don't want small cars is false (not sure where you even got that from). European cars have always been small for very valid reason beyond just CAFE. For that matter blaming CAFE is just a scapegoat excuse anyplace as far as sports car sales go since they help bring the average down not up.

I've spent a ton of time in Europe. Fuel is bananas expensive, cities are super cramped and vehicles with bigger engines are taxed like crazy. Those are the main reasons smaller, efficient vehicles are ubiquitous. I'm saying that if it was as easy and affordable for them to own CUVs, SUVs and trucks as it is for us they would gladly get into those. Except maybe in the city.

Also I don't think CAFE factors too much into sports car availability, no, except a little at certain extremes like Subaru and the WRX/STI. When super low MPG cars start making up a significant percentage of your sales volume, ouch.

Uh oh, circling back around to the "what is a sports car" question. (I don't consider WRX/STI sports cars.)

Except that price and supply are a huge part of what sells. You can't buy what you can't afford, and you can't buy what isn't offered for sale.

The government put their thumbs on the scales, and then just sat on them for good measure.

The government requirements for fleet-wide MPG standards caused the auto manufacturers to abandon many popular models. The station wagon didn't die because no one buys them, it died because it dragged down the numbers the manufacturers had to meet to avoid costly fines.

Light trucks like the S-10 and Ranger disappeared because they weren't enough cheaper to make than a full-size and didn't get enough better mileage to help their CAFE numbers. (Simplified explanation) Normally they'll produce pretty much anything that turns a profit, but when you're trying to clear the ever-taller hurdles the government puts in front of you, you have to make some sacrifices.

I'm not saying the government is solely responsible for all the things that bother me about the auto industry, but they're certainly playing more than a minor role in it.

It's not simply that big American cars are harder to drive in European cities (though they are - you'll see lots of the small Fords there, but virtually no American trucks or sedans) European regulations are even stricter.

When the government creates regulations that increase the cost (punitive taxes) certain models cost more than people are willing to pay. You can buy one of two vehicles that have exactly the same functionality for your needs, but one's a car and costs $5000 more because it's classified as a car, and the other is a truck and thus doesn't get the punitive tax for the same MPG.

It's not that the consumer is truly free to choose. You can go right or left but if you choose left I'll hit you with a stick. That's not a free choice.

The government is absolutely changing the outcome.

Boy is that a loaded statement..

Wait Tcoat, what's your list of best car? :thumbup: I would watch your youtube videos :thumbup:

You can't beat that open top feeling. :burnrubber: 86 would be a riot if it's offered in that format..... & also making it a total chick car. :bellyroll:

it would also be about 1,000 pounds heavier

You can look at it that way, or you can look at it from the other direction, which is the government left a loophole (for what I'd say is understandable reasons), that manufacturers took advantage of and are now unwilling to sacrifice their golden calfs to.

The spirit of CAFE wasn't to recertify everything as a truck to get around standards, but the magic of our system is always to find ways to skate just inside the regs (thereby making it worse for everyone in the long run).

Problem is you can't meet any semblance of CO2 neutrality with cheap fuel. There has to be an incentive for people to get into more economical cars, build sustainable housing, etc., otherwise as you say we'd all live in 1M sq. ft. houses heated by burning whatever wood we can still cut down and would all drive a semblance of 6x6 G-Wagen.

Also, fuel is actually cheaper in Europe atm than it is in some western states (AZ, NV, CA, among others).

If we didn't have cramped cities built a thousand years ago, had a different tax system and didn't care about our footprint, we'd be the united states :D.

Living in Europe, in the moment I think "damn, if only we could live more like this" in the US. More appreciation of the simpler things. Emphasis on experiences more than material possessions. These things help make the medicine of living more sustainably (which EU people kinda have no choice about) a little easier to swallow, I think, among many other positive effects on life. See Scandinavian Happiness - the only times these people were ever unhappy was when they were dealing with me.

But I don't see how the US would ever get there. And I won't lie, I'm not sure I'd vote for all of it. It's just a different world here.

$ or £?

At this point £ or € would very could be true.

There was a Toyota factory concept with a convertible and when the '13 came out there was a lot of talk of it going into production, along with talk the chassis was already reinforced for it to some extent. Pretty easy to find with a search.

https://www.autoguide.com/blog/wp-co...cept-beach.jpg