ST Battery proposal for comment
 

I haven't noticed any discussion on this, I thought some of us might be interested. From the July Fastrack:

I'm personally not sure how much I care - I've more or less decided an Odyssey 680 is as far as I'm going to go for a lighter battery, and if someone wants to spend the money to save 10 more pounds I'll live with that. OTOH, from the larger perspective of cost containment it seems like a good idea.

Other thoughts? Either way, if this is something you really care about, they're asking for comments.

Go take a look at the build thread and you’ll see a bunch of STX builds that all have antigravity ATX-30’s. It’s a 5lb battery so I’d be OK with that minimum, but at 10lbs a lot of us are going to buy new ones and try to resell or find other cars in our garages that can use that piece.

I think this proposal also really alienates STS, most of those cars are an age where they’ve relocated and have tiny tiny batteries, but they may have gone a bit overboard on that. So 5lbs at least splits the bigger difference for them too.

There's no good reason to allow battery changes and then implement a minimum weight. The 2-3lb batteries are no more expensive than the 10lb batteries and battery technology is one of the areas that is undergoing rapid changes.

Yeah. I'm highly against the wording of that proposal.
Sounds like it was written up by someone who has an issue with lithium batteries.

Maybe they sell 'lightweight' AGM batteries or something.

Ignoring the weight restriction, the voltage restriction would disallow ALL lithium batteries as they operate at a slightly different nominal voltage.

I run an ATX-20. It's about 4 lbs. It didn't cost me anymore then a quality lightweight AGM batter would have.

Just a terrible rule adjustment anyway you slice it as far as I can see.

The basis of my cost comment is that it looks to me like the 15 pound 680 is a lot cheaper than an ATX-20 or 30. I haven't priced a ten pound AGM so I'm guessing they're more than a 680 at ~$150.

In any case, send a letter if you disagree, don't just post here. I think making the point that there are a bunch of folks that immediately have to buy a new battery is certainly worth bringing up.

But complaining to random people on the internet that can't do anything is so much more fun and effective...

My ATX-20 was $160

imho intent was less about cost or performance advantage, but rather safety as tiny li-ion have shown issues in the past on street cars. There’s a practicality element too as li-ion can be more sensitive to discharge and brick more easily but given all the oddball things autoxers do that’s a minor quibble.

I’m neutral, I don’t think 10# limit gets to the heart of the issue, don’t care enough to write a letter, I’ll take it as it comes without complaint even though I put in a shorai a few weeks back.

it's a safety issue. two of the tiny lithium batteries caught fire at the Solo Nationals last year.

but yeah, write a letter.

well i guess it is good that i dont daily one anymore. But i do get it, normally people dont daily 5lb lithium atv batteries in their car. Which is kind of the point of the class

Until lithium technology is adapted to work in all cars and overcome the voltage issues (Very few of the lithium batteries have sufficient protection circuits) that happens in off-normal conditions, I think we need to look at potentially banning them in Solo. I definitely think a minimum 10lb weight will not solve or band-aid the problem.

Anyone who questions how safe lithium car batteries may or may not be, please go look at some of the horror stories in the RC world where tiny 7.2v packs have started fires etc. in storage, not even in use.

I would be in favor of not allowing lithium batteries, unless manufactured with one.

I think I have a letter worth writing, something like:

"I'm opposed to the proposed rule #32184 Lithium Ion Batteries as written. If the purpose is cost constraint it does nothing as lighter batteries are available at the same price point as 10 pound batteries.

If, however, the purpose of the rule is to ban the use of Lithium batteries as replacement for Lead Acid on the basis of safety (especially fire risk) then the rule should be written to either ban Lithium based batteries or only allow Lead Acid batteries, to include AGM unless OEM supplied."

If you agree, feel free to copy/edit as you wish and submit.

I daily drove my 2014 STX BRZ with a 3lb Shorai LiPO battery for years.

I'd be curious as to the intent here. As-is it's just weird. Why allow weight reduction, but limit it at 10lbs; If the weight limit is an attempt at banning lithium based batteries, it should be direct. Else there will be a spec battery exactly 10lbs (and probably Li based) and twice the price it should be, just because it's the best you can do. It's a wonky proposal.

Personally, I think the rule should be OE chemistry, and OE size/weight or equivalent replacement +/- 10% or something (allowances for sizes perhaps no longer available for older cars, different makes, etc.) IF there is to be a rule.
If the problem is fire risk, this should apply beyond just ST classes.


The Lithium batteries used in RC are a completely different chemistry and are not comparable to the batteries typically put into passenger vehicles. That's not to say the root problem isn't shared - if you overvolt or short them out, they don't like it. So the root problem of voltage disparity IS a risk and very much dependent on the car. The twins seem to do just fine and have a well regulated charging system; not all cars do.

Can you supply a link/vendor? Cheapest I can find one is at Summit for $288. It could be things have changed since your purchase.

Having said that, I'd still rather see a rule that just bans non-Lead batteries rather than trying to do it via an arbitrary weight.

I use a Braille AGM battery that's about 11lbs.

At my high point I weighed 265lbs. I'm thinking the battery may not be where I would get the most benefit.

I’m in the minority on this I guess….
2-3 cars I’ve heard pointed out have issues out of hundreds of cars out in the world using these batteries. Any number of other external factors could be at play as the root cause.
Either ban the technology all-together for everyone in every class/category, Or don’t. But going after one category and making a proposal that says basically “we’re banning this without directly banning this” it’s pretty pointless.
The technology of lithium batteries is improving on a daily basis. If people want to spend the extra $ and take the extra risk today, fine. If you don’t want to use it, also fine.
That’s it, it’s not really affecting anyone else. All the incidents I’ve heard about have happened in grid, not on course, they’re not really directly effecting any sort of event flow.

I had a Shorai Lithium Iron battery given to me when I bought my car used. I opted not to use it because there was something that bothered me about how it worked. The problem in my mind is that if a special charger is required to maintain the battery because of the overcharging risk then how does the battery get properly charged by the car's charging system without introducing the exact same risk?

As far as the risks at the events; I agree that some knowledge is needed about how to handle a fire if it crops up and that's not just with these batteries but with the electric vehicles as a whole. I know my region has never had to use a fire extinguisher on a fire at an event since I've been doing this and I would question how well the average person could handle a "normal" fire let alone one from these batteries so it's definitely something to think about.

I agree that this particular limitation is pretty narrow in scope and focus and seems like it's intended to go after something indirectly rather than just addressing the concern. I do remember the individual that brought this up very recently on Facebook who seemed to be just going after super-light batteries in general. It also seemed like he was bitching just to bitch since there is enough variation in driver weights, wheel weights, tire weights and other factors that make this particular weight losing technique to seem like a lot of BS. At what point are we going to start setting both weight minimums and requiring every car to go through the scales at events?

Same but that doesnt mean that normal people do

I got an ATX20RS in the car and I spent money on the MELE box.

Personally, I think the 10 lb proposal is pretty bad.

I had a bit of trouble with my battery and I've had a LOT of trouble with super lightweight AGMs in my old STS car.

I'd be cool with street class battery rules for ST. Or leaving things as is, since I already have my setup. Setting some arbitrary minimum weight does nothing but makes people spend money.

And if it truly is a safety issue, why only ST? We cool with SP cars burning to the ground?

I got it on Amazon. It's now $288 ish on there as well.

I wrote the letter, but not the rule proposal.

My intent was to get rid of lithium batteries as there have been too many fires with the SCCA ill equipped to handle them. The fact that they're so much lighter highly encourages their use.

AntiGravity is amusingly one of the brands that says they're safe because they're lithium-iron... meanwhile my anecdotal evidence shows they fail at the highest rate. We had a local STR ND light one on fire right before the NJ Pro.



I'm an EE by trade, none of these batteries can totally prevent themselves from lighting on fire. They can try to shut off when undercharged and/or overheated but they can't/won't react to large current or voltage spikes that can nearly instantly cause issues. The battery management systems in modern cars will treat every battery as if it's the OEM lead acid battery unless reprogrammed to handle a lithium battery. Porsche charges $3500 for their lithium battery and reprogramming. I think BMW offers similar, but the point is that as cars get more advanced and they're still using lead acid batteries, lithium batteries are not a suitable alternative. When a car comes with a lithium battery and is programmed to handle it, it's as safe as it can get. Look at Teslas, you don't see them spontaneously combusting very often.


STS cars get away with 1 pound batteries because their charging systems are dumb as hell and their electrical demands are tiny (albeit still with risks if the charging system fails in an unsafe way). First gen twins seem to be generally fine but other modern cars (even 2nd gen twins) are struggling with lithium batteries.



I don't like how the rule was written, but I get the intent. The STAC wanted to "soft ban" lithium batteries by not allowing super light batteries. Super light AGM batteries are generally safe (albeit pretty crappy to deal with though) so it's just kind of weird. The complications of writing a rule to handle this in the way that allows for safe use of lithium batteries while disallowing unsafe use (ie. in a car with battery management system not designed for it and/or battery in an overheated location like an STR ND)... Not fun.








So yeah, I get it doesn't make a lot of people thrilled but I'd also like to not have a car light on fire in grid next to me and have it be a huge panic. Feel free to write in with clarifications or changes or tell them you hate me and think I suck. I want the rule to be what's best for everyone, I've already written in to tell them I think it needs some changes :)

That's because they are probably the most common as far as retrofit batteries. But when you say fail, how so? They are incredibly safe as far as the chemistries that are available. My GM bought a sample NCM battery for our equipment and was wondering why I wrote "bomb" on it in sharpie.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bg_480HUheo&t=63s

Because they're the cheapest... for a reason.


When I say fail, they light on fire.

They make cheap and expensive batteries of every type :iono:

Where these knock off's or being used outside their intended use IE watercraft or MC battery?

I like the thought. Plus the training that I had to take to go into a lithium facility has me fuckin' terrified of lithium. I just hate the arbitrary weight limit, which I think penalizes current competitors and doesn't solve much of anything.

Do you think 10 lb lithium batteries are safer?

I wrote a letter in saying that if you want to ban Lithium then just write the rule to say that, and that it should apply to all classes if its safety related, not just ST.

As written now, as an arbitrary weight limit, it doesn't make much sense.

I didn't ask for the 10 lb weight limit, for the record.


There are really nice 10lb lithium.batteries with proper BMS but they're also absurdly expensive. If that's what it takes for a lithium battery to be safe, I'm all for it.

The Shorai batteries specifically say that they can be used with normal battery chargers, the only stipulation is that you cannot use the high voltage desulfunation function some lead-acid chargers have. The Shorai specific chargers work a little better since they charge and balance individual cells.

That's actually good to know. Since I didn't buy it firsthand I didn't really know the rules/capabilities so it worried me. The one I got secondhand with the car when I bought it was very small in CCA and I was more worried that I would be stuck somewhere in the rare instances where I drive the car outside my motorsports hobby.

and I've yet to see a Shorai light on fire either :popcorn:

Only catastrophic failure I'm aware of was just twice the size it should have been, no fire.
My first one just stopped reporting voltage anywhere. Size was normal, but it had been showing up after a drive and making the shorai tender unhappy... Unbalanced I think. Did that for a year or two before failing though.