Steering? 2nd gen BRZ GR86 vs. 1st gen?
 

Hi,


I'm hoping by now enough people got hands on experience comparing 2nd gen with 1st gen FT86.


I'm particularly interested in the steering as that's among what I love the most about my 1st gen FT86.



As far as I understand, the 2nd gen has an entirely new setup for the steering. They were supposedly aiming at simplifying it. I read in some places that this effected the feedback and made the steering less communicative.



If anyone has anything to chip in, please do. I feel like personally, this is a topic important enough to discuss on its own.

As far as I understand, the 2nd gen has an entirely new setup for the steering. They were supposedly aiming at simplifying it. I read in some places that this effected the feedback and made the steering less communicative.



Edited, had 1 too many. I find gen 2 quite a bit better for feel. I also have little respect for most NA "journalists" or he causual youtubers that dont really know what they're writing about. Lot of that..
Anyways, it's a simplified system with less damped out. Problem with EPS. The lack of rigidity, in gen 1 added more weight to make it seen more stiff but there is less "feel." In a Gen 1 despite being "heavier " promise

Do this test. Gen 1 vs gen 2. Bumpy road. 30 mph..See which one has more movement. My money is all Gen 2. And that's what we call, "feedback." It's also more consistent from lock to lock without the off center dead spot like my '13
13. I've also owned a Lotus evora which, arguably, has the best steering feel yet of any modern car. Way better than my 997.1.

You really need to test drive it back to back with your first gen car. For me the steering feel was the biggest let down on the new gen, others on here have a similar view to me and then there are others that prefer it or don’t think it is a big deal. Both are still great cars and I would still own either one.

Here is my detailed comparison, if you’re interested, the overall thread isn’t bad either.

https://www.ft86club.com/forums/show...&postcount=638

Another good comparison on the same thread.

https://www.ft86club.com/forums/show...&postcount=653

I sincerely believe gen 1 owners are trying to confirm their bias. They probably think I am also but I do, absolutely, find gen 2 to have the better steering feel and I've owned both. And I sincerely believe many can't tell "feel" from "weight" 100%. And unless you get a drunk salesman? Which is possible (ran an internet New car sales dept) how are you really going to know?

Well this guy owns a GR86 and has had a few first gens and he had similar observations about the steering. I think it is personal preference as to what you like.

https://www.ft86club.com/forums/show...59&postcount=1

I don't remember many people complaining about the 1st gen steering feel. If the 2nd gen steering is an entirely new setup, then it makes sense they were trying to achieve a different result.

There also wasn't a previous version to compare to. I've got my opinion on the matter and that's that. Y'all think whatever you like ��

That’s fair enough, steering feel is a bit more of an intangible and will be down to personal preference. To see if you prefer it or like it less, the only way is to test drive one yourself.

And that's a solid point too. Yeah, preference. Not everyone is looking for the exact same thing and wouldn't mind a bit more weight 👍

Yep, subjectivity and confirmation bias will always come into play, but I consciously seek to keep mine in check. If something is "better", I'll freely admit it (and want it.)

I'm late to the twins - I'd always wanted to try one, tho only pulled the trigger after watching the reveal footage of the '22 BRZ (before the GR was shown off.) Managed to find one well under market value with 10K miles that had a perfect service history. I don't have a dog in this fight - I can comfortably afford a '22, and my investment in the GT86 is minimal since the car has appreciated in value since I purchased it.

Ok enough back story. I was straight up surprised by the difference in steering weight and feel when I drove my GT86 back to back (on the same PS4 tyres) as the '22 BRZ test car. Feel is subjective, but the heft of the zenki 86 is just perfect for my tastes. I could also feel the road surface more clearly, and encountered less understeer going into the tighter bends. Even if we disregard the subjectivity of feel, I'd take the zenki wheel and weighting every time over the '22 BRZ setup. For me, my car was more tactile and thus more satisfying to punt around a corner. Will test and reassess when the GR86 launches here in Oz.

Awesome response and thank you. Tires do come into play as well. My '13 was on Indy 500s. (I know, I know. Don't shoot me) and until my engine had trouble. A whole other story.... I put TWS 18x8, 225 Falken RT660s along with my Bilstein B8/Swift Spec Rs with Cusco rear control arms and -1 camber all around. I want to say I feel that there is bit more weight now but probably wishful thinking. What I do like is that I find it more precise with more feedback despite being lighter. It may also ne the increased rigidity that's making me like the steering better as well as that's something i really look for in a car. Why i prefer the twins to MX5s. Anyways, I do think both systems are just about the best feeling EPS systems available at any price.

Yeah, no doubt tires play a significant role (which is why I think the press track comparisons (with previous models on primacies) were unintentionally misleading.
Despite the steering being lighter and a little less feelsome from my perspective, there's so much to love about the '22 cars. Really feels like the end of an era - affordable, light, pure sports coupes that thrive on corners. We're lucky to have access to these cars.

It is the end of an Era. And as a 43 year old "purist" I had been waiting for a paradigm shift to super lightweight cars with less power. The needle swung the other way over the last 30 years and yeah, these are some of the last, best ICE cars yet made. There have also been a lot of comparisons as to now this is a modern 944. I'd say it's also got a bit of E30 M3 DNA in them. Been fortunate to have driven this car both on road and track. It's amazing. Hero you can meet. Playful, full of feel, etc. But I still like my '22 BRZ more 🤣 cheers 🍻

Over the weekend I compared my 22 BRZ against my 1st gen E85 FR-S on some familiar back roads.

The 2nd gen steering is lighter, has a tiny bit less feedback overall, but is also more consistent under heavy loads. The only time I noticed significantly less feedback through the wheel on the 2nd gen was this one corner where there's a dip before a turn. The steering on the 1st gen typically loads up heavily in those situations (and with sticky tires on the track will actually cause the EPS to cut out) whereas this 2nd gen doesn't load up like that. The same thing will happen on any uphill turn.

Other than that, if you can get past the lightness, the actual feedback through the wheel is very close. Both gens have good feedback compared to most other EPS units. If you've ever driven an S2000, both gens have a lot more feedback compared to that.

Rest of my write-up is here, if anyone is interested.

https://www.ft86club.com/forums/show...0&postcount=32

Thanks for chiming in DS - you’ve eloquently summed up exactly what I was feeling when comparing them back to back.

Yes. I've driven a 355. Heavy. Especially the Spyder. Light, quick ratio steering, full of feel. And that V8. BUT, did you see the E30 M3? That's the better sports car and what i was talkkng about. Not even kidding lol. I'd take an E30 M3 over a 355 any day, all day. And still prefer my '22 BRZ lol. Structural integrity has come a long, long way.

Savagegeese posted a 5000 miles update of their GR86 and talked about the steering. They were burned with their original FRS so I doubt they have any bias towards the first gen. They do mention perhaps increasing caster for a heavier feel, but acknowledge that that probably won't change the feel by itself.

Link (at 14:11 minutes): https://youtu.be/FL6RFA_AFKI?t=851

I have to admit, to this day, I still don't quite get what is "steering feel". I have hooned decently hard on the street and tracked all of the fun cars I have owned and can't conclude on this even after purposely looking for it. What I noticed is weight, speed and accuracy between all the different makes/models.

Good stuff. I'm actually adding Raceseng camber plates specifically so I can change the castor. My car is still in the shop but once on I can report back on any increase in weight. Still in the camp of "lighter with more feel", though lol. But i do respect these two guys very much.

In my understanding (and I might be wrong, as I'm a fairly new driver and never drove old school manual everything full of feel cars) steering feel is basically two things:

1. Changing weight of the steering with changing grip level. Heavier with more load and more weight on the tires (thus more grip), and lighter when reaching the limit (i.e. understeer). This helps the driver gauge how much faster they can go as well as giving indication that you are at the limit
2. Road surface changes moving the steering wheel in your hands. Think bumps and camber changes. Also, the wheel spinning rapidly in the direction of a slide when oversteering. This gives feedback to road conditions, some of them are not apparent visually

You can get a feeling for numb steering in most econoboxes while taking a curve fairly quickly (7/10 is enough, no need to push to the limit) - the steering will feel exactly the same between turn in, apex and turn out. Also, think of how the steering feels when driving over compacted snow (as an example of when feel is lost).

Are you sure it’s not second gen confirmation bias? ;)

I "prefer" it. Haven't we already been over this? And how hard are you guys driving your cars? Shouldn't say this but my PS4s were gone at 7k miles. With a rotation lol. And it's not like I haven't owned, raced and tested a bunch of dedicated and non dedicated stuff. Like even GT3 racecars��

It was meant to be a light hearted wind up after Savage Geese had a similar view to us all. Hence the wink at the end. All good. :cheers:

Yeah probably too hard, I have Pilot Super Sports on mine and the edge of the tread is definitely more worn.

Lol. Good stuff. And same. My smart ass is always delivered with a smile... ��

[QUOTE=PBR;3531171
Anyways, it's a simplified system with less damped out. Problem with EPS. The lack of rigidity, in gen 1 added more weight to make it seen more stiff but there is less "feel." In a Gen 1 despite being "heavier " promise[/QUOTE]


This is an interesting point of view... I wish I had both gens parked outside for me to test back to back and see for myself..


on a side note, it is utterly amazing to hear someone who had an Evora give prospective on the FT86. The Evora has always been among my top dream cars but I never got to owning one.

Thanks a lot. One of the most informative posts I've read and most likely would be inline with what I would experience if I actually got a test drive myself.



I'll just add one thing, which I don't mean to negate anything you've said just food for thought, when you test out a car, it takes a good bit to understand it and learn how to read it better.



It personally took me about 2 months to understand how amazing the FT86 chassis really is. Some thing you can realize immediately like how heavy a car is and so on. Maybe a different steering sensation might take a bit to understand better?



But anyway as I said before, I am most likely to agree with you on your assessment if it were me doing the test. Just from what I'm reading online from various sources.

but isn't weight itself feedback on its own?



I mean cars with no power steering are touted having superior feedback yet they can be really heavy for it.



I know some manufacturers just artificially include a heavy steering wheel just make you believe you are having more feedback but I never felt the 1st gen FT86 was among them. The heaviness to me is real feedback.

which could be to cut costs.....keep that in mind

so true, I've been waiting for this paradigm shift to super lightweight cars too but certainly it's shifting to the other direction. It's the era of the two ton sedans now.

Maybe go Kart racing? the feedback on those things I believe is impossible to miss due to their ultra-light weight and their direct connectivity.



For me, steering feel and feedback can be a deal-breaker. I walked away from buying some really good sports cars because the steering felt so numb.



For me, how the car feels is more important than outright performance.

Has anyone tried changing the steering rack bushings on a gen2? Maybe the gen1 bushings fit?

Coming from a '20 to the '22, I feel that they improved the bushings in the rack. Going to the older bushing I feel would introduce more slop into the steering.

I was reaching a bit after a few. It wasn't. And steering feel is one of the things that sold me on the car despite disliking the characteristics of the engine. Just sold a GLA 250. It's like a hot hatch on stilts. Sort of. DCT. It has artificially heavy steering with little feedback. So I don't believe weight is necessarily a form of feedback unless it's actually adding to the experience. This was taking away. And on the flip side I had an EVO X. Light steering that had a very quick ratio. The thing just darted in. Because it's hiding a 3600 lbs sedan with heavy front weight bias. I also found the Evora to have better steering feel over both my Elises despite the Elises having much heavier steering and a manual rack. My only complaint about the new car's steering is that, initially it doesn't weigh up as nicely. But after that, I find more feedback, precision and consistency. But I'd really love to get 2, stock, side by side and truly compare. Or get a definitive answer from a Subaru engineer.

I think that might be part of the issue - most people (myself included) aren't able to really determine the nuances of steering feel. The initial feel and the feel at 7/10 is more important than feeling that extra 5% when going 10/10. It might be akin to a "showroom mode" in a TV, or headphones with extra bass the sacrifices other tonal qualities (yes, I'm looking at you, Beats). They WOW the average buyer on first impression, but then turn out to be a mediocre product. Luckily the first gen managed to remain a great car in all driving conditions, so we had the cake and could eat it too.

I agree with what Mark said in the Savagegeese review - "now it [the steering] feels like any other car". The first gen felt special to me (while an ND2 Miata I test drove right after felt like a normal car). The second gen lost some of that specialness. Is the second gen a better car? Most certainly. Will it be allow a good driver to drive faster (even disregarding the engine and talking about the stiffness improvements, steering changes, etc.)? For sure. But some people (myself included) prefer the first gen.

Again I'll use the Cayman generations as an example - each one is objectively better, but some people still prefer the 987.

Sorry I wasn't clear. What I was trying to get at was if gen1 and gen2 bushings were the same. Would gen1 aftermarket polyurethane bushings work on the gen2?

I don’t know if this helps or not, but I had a chance to compare my 2017 86 to the new BRZ. The 86 seemed planted to the road as if it had no power steering. You would have to nudge the steering wheel to change course. It felt very secure to me, almost like you could take your hands off the wheel and it would drive in a straight line by itself. The BRZ, on the other hand, would respond with subtle adjustments to the steering; the perception being that it seemed lighter and more nimble.

I traded my 86 for the BRZ.

The part numbers for the bushings did change. Unclear if there are any actual differences though. Yes they are the same size as the first gen. I have a set of delrin bushings on standby left over from my gen 1, but haven't really felt the need to use them. I don't feel the jigglyness that I did on gen 1.

Again I'll use the Cayman generations as an example - each one is objectively better, but some people still prefer the 987.[/QUOTE]


I prefer 987s steering. And there's a huge chance if I drive both gen twins back to back I'd prefer the gen 1 steering as well. Its the first thing I noticed in my '22. I might go look for one in a car lot somewhere. It's still fun as hell to drive so why not lol?

Steering? 2nd gen BRZ GR86 vs. 1st gen?
 

Really? The 987 felt too sterile to me. It was good but I didn’t feel it was what everyone raved about it.