The really cool thing, I thought, was when they started doing the adjustable velocity stacks. I forgot exactly what year that was.

Nope, it's not. We've all literally agreed to that multiple times in this thread.

You seem to be arguing that it IS FUNCTIONAL, while the rest of us are saying, If it's functional then they should provide us with the objective data.

Going off of Gruppe-M's track record of making functional intakes (defined as intakes that result in increased horsepower and torque) for countless other cars over the last 20+ years, I think it is completely reasonable to expect this one to be functional. I wouldn't get hung up on the "ram air" moniker, as it is only part of the equation and isn't the sole reason for this intake working well. The intake they make for the S2000 would pick up 7-8 whp with a tune, and that motor is almost certainly harder to make power with than the FA24 because of its smaller displacement, lower compression, and generally how well-designed the stock intake and exhaust manifolds were. Time will tell on the FA24 as we don't even have tuning solutions out yet, but I would be shocked if this thing didn't pick up healthy power with a tune.

Having said all of that, I think it's besides the point. This product is not meant for people searching for all-out performance. This product caters to the type of person who would be able to use a Timex to keep time, but chooses to wear an Omega instead, if you get my drift.

Hopes and dreams are all I read here. You are asking us to accept some sort of magical increase in power based on the reputation of previous, also unverified claims of the same for other platforms. If anything, I'd be worried about ruining the MAF signal because it's been moved so close to the throttle body. That distortion due to acoustical effects is well known. It's also the reason for the, what, three or four Helmholtz resonators along the intake plumbing. Those aren't free.

Factory tunes are conservative for many good reasons. Tune first, add the bling, and tune again. Where are those mad gainz now?

But, hey, it's the Rolex of airboxes.

Oops, sorry. I read way too quickly. You already covered the MAF issue. :(

Popcorn? Anyone? lol

damn this thread blew up

im 99% sure subaru engineers put a lot more R&D into the OEM intake system than GruppeM has done in the past 6-8 months that this car has been out

there is a reason the factory intake is so well and that the previous generation didnt have many intake solutions that were actually improving the vehicle

modern intakes on vehicles are designed EXTREMELY well and efficiently. Other than maybe a better flowing filter(which is hard to come by too), its going to be very hard to improve it.

does the GruppeM intake make a difference? maybe in the perfect world scenario, on a dyno with fans blasting into those air ducts, sure youll see some gains.

will it make a noticeable difference in a real world application? its hard to answer that until there's solid evidence.

judging by the vw world that i grew up with.. the motor needs to be pulling A LOT of air before an aftermarket intake makes any difference that is worth noting. on mk6 GTI's almost every aftermarket intake on the market was damn near useless up until the big turbo 500whp ranges. all they really did it make cooler, louder noises like most people want. the oem intake was perfectly fine for the most part.

i see the same trend with a lot of modern vehicles. the oem intake system is very impressive.


i agree 100% that this intake is for the guy who wants bling in their engine bay and is likely building their car for show and display purposes rather than track or performance purposes. if youre dumping this kind of money on an intake, you definitely want to show it off.

Not to be blunt but this isn't an S2000, which is also over 20 years old in design, if you are new to this platform then you will not understand that in the past decade of the FA20, intakes were marginal in increasing performance due to how well the optimised the factory intake was, in fact many lost power.


This will be no different. Gruppe-M doesn't have a magic recipe that other manufacturers don't have. The cars you quoted that do gets gains from a Gruppe-M, but they also get gains from the other manufacturers too, it's not unique to them.

Very humble observation: the filter looks a little small and too close to the maf and throttle plate.

The S2000 had a similarly-optimized intake from the factory, however there is always room for improvement. The intakes on these cars are no different. Claiming that intakes don't make power on these cars is a bit disingenuous, especially when there is clear evidence that they do. D-Sport also did a comparison of a ton of available intakes for the FR-S and found that most, if not all of them, made considerable power with a tune. Link here: https://dsportmag.com/the-tech/scion...ting-ecutek/9/

Didn't the revolution intake (gruppe m collaboration) make power on the FA20? This seems like an improved version of that design, so deductive reasoning would suggest that it could make power here as well.
According to this thread, it made quite a bit.... https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94390

Again, this intake seems like it would work just as well as any other intake, perhaps slightly better due to the chamber design and the twin air scoops. Once these cars have a tuning solution available for them I am reasonably sure that intakes like these and others will yield healthy gains all over the power band, including in the torque dip. Even without a tune, I am sure modest gains would be realized, but caring about how much power an intake makes without a tune, especially on any car with an engine this size, seems silly to me.

I think you can both have nice parts like this, and also take them to the track and use them. I don't know how this particular community is in that regard, but having an S2000 track car put together with really nice parts is not an especially uncommon thing. Some people have deeper pockets and like having nice stuff that is going to be worth decent money when they part the car out and move on to something else. This is no different to buying a set of Volks to use as track wheels when Konigs or Enkeis would have worked about as well. You could go even further and say this is more functional than the stick-on BS OEM STi "aero" that some people tack onto their cars - I don't hear anyone complaining about that.

As you are suggesting, the OEM intake in this car is very well designed. Subaru's engineers put a lot of thought into designing the intake so that it performed well at all RPMs and didn't cause a significant power restriction. Having said this, there are other factors at play - the intake is designed to make power, but ALSO to not make noise (bummer!), to mitigate the risk of water or foreign material intrusion into the engine as much as possible (so people can drive them through puddles and not pop their engines), reduce heat soak, comply with the emissions goals of the engine, etc. That means it is an inherently compromised design if your goal is to make as much power as possible, which was not Subaru's ultimate goal here. Again, the S2000 is subject to the same logic - well designed intake that works great, but you give up ultimate performance for something that is designed to work in every street car Honda sold, in all situations. A properly-designed aftermarket intake (those cars are very picky in this regard) would yield power gains, but at the expense of the other factors the OEM was working with (noise/emissions/reliability/etc). Another thing to consider is that the OEM intakes on both cars are designed and mass-manufactured to a cost and to be easily serviceable, as opposed to some aftermarket intakes that take up every little bit of room available in the name of performance while making it more of a pain to install and service (replace filters, clean, etc).

The Golf (and any turbocharged performance car in general) is not an apples to apples comparison here because it is totally different in terms of design, and was engineered to work and perform totally differently than the motor in this car. That motor was designed with turbocharging in mind, and thus doesn't benefit very much from an intake (unless you're tuned and seeking to squeeze out maximum performance and response from the motor and turbo). Intakes on those cars largely help with response and add some noise, but are not where you go if you're trying to make power. As the owner of a Mk7, I am speaking purely from experience here, not what I've read on the internet.

Guys, my goal here isn't to convince you all that spending two racks on an intake is a good idea. I am simply trying to have a discussion about the potential of this intake to make power under the appropriate circumstances. No intake for any 4 cylinder N/A car is going to make a noticeable amount of horsepower without a tune, however on the last car and other similar cars they usually pick up power when tuned compared to the OEM intake also with a tune. In the real world, I don't think there are any intakes that would yield a very noticeable improvement in power over stock without a tune, but if you're tuned and switching to a good aftermarket intake you're going to notice the extra WHP and torque. Saying something is useless or worthless with no evidence to support your claim other than purely anecdotal evidence is kind of silly in my opinion. At present, there is no data on the FA24 that shows how well it responds to a properly-designed aftermarket intake as there is still no tuning solution. I am positive that we will start to see some pretty encouraging results from these motors with bolt-ons added to the mix once there is a way to tune them.

Our point is that although there most certainly are cars that will benefit from an improved CAI these are not one of them. They come with a very effective CAI already. Adding length and complexity to a simple yet effective design does not make it "better" in any way shape or form with or without a tune. The other point that several of us have tried to make is that calling this thing a "ram air" system is just ludicrous. It is in now way going to provide ram air boost at any speed that these cars will ever be driven at.
You argue that we have " no evidence to support your claim other than purely anecdotal evidence" yet you are doing exactly the same thing to try and support you viewpoint.
Even the TRD intake for the first gen was proven to have no real benefit other than pure bling and that was developed directly by Toyota.
Just pop a higher flow filter in, tune (when you can) for that higher flow and call it a day.
No doubt many will buy this and adamantly state that they can immediately "feel" the improvement in performance but butt dyno measurements are notoriously inaccurate.

I’d still copilot a starship with you.

But it’s high quality so MAF placement doesn’t matter :bonk:

I would be interested in seeing if it makes any extra HP (dyno-verified) WITHOUT a tune. Because right now, that is the only choice we have.

I don't doubt that it might make a few more HP with a tune. But since almost all of my engine mod choices are cost/value/hassle propositions, this would definitively not qualify as being of interest to me almost regardless of what those tests would show.

Still think that the best bang for the buck, by far, on the first gen was catless headers/OFT tune/e85. I really hope that option becomes available for 2nd gen.

That is not what he said. What he said was the S2000 is older. You are comparing the level of intake optimization of a 20 years old car to a modern one like they are the same. We have more tech and a better understanding of the engineering behind it.

Considering the stock car with a tune made 179whp it's like everyone said, most aftermarket intakes don't make that much of a difference on the 1st gen considering the best one made 183whp, and it's not like those gains stack.

I have seen enough datalogs on aftermarket intakes to say I would be surprised D-Sport got those numbers without at least some maf scaling correction. Most need a good bit of rescaling, my perrin had LTFT's off around +10%. I have always been suspicious of their tests, but then again they do want to keep the companies that pay for adds on their website happy.

I emailed Shiv last month and he said developing OFT for the 2nd Gens is currently his top priority.........but we will see.

A whole new generation of twin owners can be frustrated by their terrible customer service :wub:

Well ya know 500 bucks should buy a lifetime of free tunes and 24/7 customer support.

Well any support at all would be a step up.

I received plenty of support both over the phone and via YouTube tutorials.

At first yes.
We have been down this road.
YouTube tutorials are NOT customer support.

I had GREAT customer service. I ordered the product. I got my hardware. I was emailed my tunes. I installed them. They worked great. And considering the $500 I paid (of which I could probably easily get $250 back today), I don't see how you can't recognize the value provided for the cost.

If you want a custom tune and superior customer service (and are willing to pay for it), by all means you should definitely buy Ecutek.

Early buyers did. Then when he moved onto new platforms he just seemed to disappear. Later customers had nothing but issues. It is very well documented on here.

I am not talking about lifetime of free tunes or tunes at all, I am talking about actual issues and going months without getting responses.

I wasn't around so I don't know what/how things happened. And obviously being a late, late adopter, I received the benefit of what everyone else went through. Indeed, it will be hard for me to decide what to do if/when OFT provides a Gen 2 solution as I would love what I believe will be similar gains on Gen 2 for a similar set-up (OFT/catless headers/e85). But I also don't want to be an OFT (or an EcuTek or anybody else for that matter) guinea pig. Regardless, I do know I really want that option and I don't think endlessly bashing Shiv on these forums is helpful in that especially when I had such a positive experience myself.

Oh I agree, and I used OFT on my NC1 and my first gen BRZ. I've also emailed EcuTek last month and there answer was "We've begun initial development work. And should be getting back to it soon, no timeline for release."

I'm just hoping it doesn't go the way of the ND2 Miata, where they just decided it wasn't worth the effort. So there is no Ecutek option for the ND1, which is why you aren't seeing a CARB legal Edelbrock kit for it, for example.

It will be a real bummer if that happens to the twins.

All I can say is I hope everyone emails them, hits them up on social media, etc, so they know the demand is there.

On the other hand maybe he will read the comments and improve his service.
There were many that were sharpening their pitchforks and lighting the torches to go hunt him down at one point.

Here's my take on that intake.

Gazoo Racing engineers have made & used it on their 86 and 86GRMN way before GruppeM or other DIYers.
http://car.kurumagt.com/wp-content/u.../86toku001.jpg

With that said, they designed the front bumper area to get certain amount of air/force fed into that intake.

Just like other mods, is it worth the price? That's up to the buyer. It might be a bling factor, it might be power factor (even it only give 0.5% more whp). If the buyer thinks it's worth $1,600, sure go for it.

2 yen,
Yes, that's an actual GRMN 86 intake manifold. Yes, you could of bought it (there's part #). No, you can't buy it anymore (they discontinued).

That at least is almost a straight run unlike the Magic Mountain rollercoaster that started this thread.

GruppeM Ram Air System Intake
 

My header would never clear that Gazoo intake.

Don't want to derail this thread... but I still don't get the obsession with OFT tune? ESPECIALLY when it comes to E85. Everyone that raves so much about it makes it sound like it's the absolute best bang for the buck. I just don't see how it comes even close. I mean how much does it really run for?? I got Ecutek with license and tune for about 750 after tax. I had the peace of mind of choosing ANY professional tuner out there that I preferred. I also have the peace of mind of fine tuning the car over and over again until I think it's perfect. I also get the benefit of the different maps and the extreme ease of switching between them. I also get the benefit of using flex fuel and never having to worry about how much of 93 or E85 I ever choose to fill.

For the what... few hundred bucks that I didn't get to save? Granted I went with a flex-fuel kit to add onto costs (about 500), but I didn't have to. It just seems like the far better bang for the buck to me. It also feels worlds safer to me knowing that I have one of the top tuners out there who will personally read my logs repeatedly and get my car to an optimal tune.

Then you tack on the Shiv disappearing problems and it pretty much seems like a no brainer to me on what the best bang for the buck is. Am I crazy or missing something here? Are OFT tunes that much cheaper?

I loved having OFT/e85 on my FRS and being able to log/monitor with my OFT mounted to my dash. I had alarms set for various parameters and could monitor real time fuel trims, knock, global timing advance, oil/coolant temps, etc.

I logged my canyon and track drives and could tweak and edit tunes easily on romraider to make as many adjustments as I wanted until I had each tune running exactly how I wanted. I created a tune for canyons at elevation. Had another more conservative tune for track days. Another for 91 and for 93. I could switch freely between tunes depending on what fuel I was using and where I planned to drive. I also could tell based on my logs the effect of each part I added (Mishimoto inlet tube, 2017 header, various catless and catted headers) and how my tune was compensating and adjusting to those parts.

Not really sure how this all compare with Ecutek but I think $450 (or w/e it is now) for OFT is a bargain for everything that you’re getting (ots e85/91/93 stage 1 and 2 tunes, plus all the other tunes and maps available open source) plus the loading and logging and real time monitoring functionality.

Probably the only downside was the customer service was very slow at OFT but you don’t really need them for much.

I actually wish OFT would hurry up and release a product for the 2nd gens. Seeing how cheap e85 is right now compared to 91 is killing me lol.

There we go, at first you were trying to present it like you can run a Flex Fuel tune without the kit. Currently $600 + $750 for the license and such.

So are you REALLY trying to act like you don't understand why people would want to pick up a used OFT for $350 ($500 new) vs $1350 for an Ecutek tune and fuel kit?

I never had any issues with my BRZ running E85 on the OTS OFT tune. Watched the parameters and saw no need to datalog to try to get another 4-5 whp out of it. Started fine in the cold and pulled strong with no knock and good fuel trims.

Pretty parts can be used on track... but there's a good chance they wont. Track guys would rather dump $1k+ on tires and pads to continue tracking, than to dump it on an intake that in the most perfect world will give a 2-3whp bump in power. This has been common knowledge for 99% of NA motors on the market and i highly doubt the fa24 will be an exception to that.

If youre dumping $1k+ on an intake for a track car brz/86, you better be damn on the limit of the platform and be ready to jump ship into a something better or go FI with the brz/86.

I grew up with vw's but am an advocate for NA motors having owned stuff like s2000s, ae86's, e36's, ITR's etc. Induction noise is very addictive.

In fact ive only owned one turbo charged vehicle in my entire life and that was an STI.

Out of every damn NA vehicle ive owned or worked on in the last decade, my mk6 golf was the ONLY car where an aftermarket intake made sense from a performance aspect. The OEM intake is routed right over the exhaust manifold and is notorious for having heat soaking issues.

The cost of this GruppeM intake is a few hundred $$ cheaper than the Greddy ITB kit for the previous gen(not including install or tuning ofc)

If you really care for induction noise, bling, and want to dump money into minimal gains, that ITB kit is perfect. Youll get more induction noise than youll ever want, youll be taking home awards at shows and if properly tuned, you might gain a tiny bit of power.

in conclusion before i go too far off topic, i think the biggest issue with this GruppeM intake is that it doesnt make sense in any regard. It's $1600 for an intake on an NA vehicle where tuning isnt even unlocked yet. Intakes never show any reliable gains without tuning. Even if GruppeM wanted to show gains, they cant unless they somehow have unlocked the factory ECU and tuned the car with the intake. It's not that they didnt provide anything to back their product... its the fact that they cant because it literally isnt possible yet

My experience is that any swirl created before the throttle plate is gimmicky and will only confuse the maf anyway

I paid 400 brand new for my oft in 2014 and have used 3 different tunes. The tunes were free. No knocking or other issues except for one tune being on the rich side.

The D-Sport test was done vs the 2013 OEM intake. The 2017+ intake is better and so far I've seen *maybe* one intake outperform it by any statistically meaningful margin.



A drop-in filter alone made 5-ish hp on an early intake. On a 2nd gen it makes like... 2 hp. Which is a MUCH smaller percentage gain when comparing 215whp to 165whp.

Big plus for OFT is resale value. I paid $630 CAD for my V2 brand new and can unload it for $550 pretty easily.

Had custom tunes done via forum members for less than $100. Ecutek is the superior tuning platform but for most NA stuff OFT is pretty decent.

In retrospect I may have gone ecutek day 1 since @tomm.brz also does ecutek tunes and would have probably cost me same or less overall.