‘22 GR86 vs 2010 Cayman (987.2)
 

Worth a look, enjoy!

https://youtu.be/FCy_tD8n-HI

Who does a head to head between cars that are 12 years apart?

It's an interesting thought experiment - on one hand look what kinda performance you can get for 30k now vs 45k+ back in the day, and on the other hand, hey look at this old car that was ahead of its time.

porsche's are special, i guess

A car enthusiast. You’re right, the general public wouldn’t cross shop these two, but a car enthusiast might look at other cool cars for similar money, albeit older ones.

I would cross shop these two cars.

It's pretty much a redo of the old Chris harris 370z vs 86 vs used cayman. With the current GR86 power it becomes very compelling.

I bought a 2011 Cayman 2.9 early in 2019 and drove it back to back on the street and at the track vs. my '17 PP throughout the year. Idea was to keep the one I liked best overall. I kept the BRZ and it wasn't even close. The hydraulic steering in the 987.2 is only OK if you ask me. Feel is honestly not the best, kinda heavyish but not in a good way, seemed to mask feel as if it has too much caster, and kickback is a real thing with it. Also it's way too slow on-center, and the variable rack is noticeable and for me highly annoying. And the steering wheel is too big! I would have LOVED to transplant the BRZ's quicker steering (and smaller steering wheel) into the 987... 2.9 flat-6 sounded super-sweet (esp w/ Borla exhaust), but I found the power/torque curve to be a bit boring. Torque is falling off gently with rpm from midrange on up to the extent that I would have to look at my dyno sheet to convince myself that I should rev to redline every shift to optimize performance at the track. Whereas the BRZ's 2.0 has a rising torque curve up to ~6500rpm and feels like it pulls harder (relatively!) from there up to redline. The Porsche's engine feels less rev-happy, which makes some sense given the same 7400rpm redline and it making 91hp/liter vs. 2.0 BRZ making 102.5hp/liter. Porsche's sport seats were the best thing about the car, LOVED them! But I found switchgear to be less ergonomic and with subjectively *worse* haptic feel.

Most importantly, the BRZ was/is fricking FUN and engaging to drive even at 2/10ths going to the store in town. Porsche was mostly aloof, and god forbid I forgot to smash the "sport" button, otherwise throttle response made the car feel sloooow for 99% of street driving.

I sold the Porsche, and honestly I don't really miss it. I would have *missed* the BRZ...

Against a 981 or 718 might be different. But then there’s the cost difference. Per dollar the twins are the most fun for sure. Flat V6 sound better then 4 banger all day though.

about to meet up at Pitt Race with my buddy in a 2014 Cayman S.. he's probably a slightly better driver so i don't really have a choice but it'll be fun to see if we can mix it up a little. we'll probably swap cars for at least a partial session for our own comparison. he got his car a few months ago and it was like $60k so definitely not a real performance or price comparison, but still fun.

i think that if you have $30-40K for a car, the cayman would be fun 2nd or 3rd car, but because of the concern for reliability and maintenance, it probably loses a lot of appeal in that market space. the GR86 is a really fun plug&play car but it's not quite mid-engine feel if that's what someone's after. also the back seat might be mandory for someone who wants to be able to haul a couple kids around once in a while (me).

I currently have a 2020 Hakone 86 and a 2008 Boxster (base). For the strictly street driving I do, I believe the biggest difference in feel between the two cars is due to the final drive ratios. The Porsche is geared taller than the Toyota. At 3000 RPM, the 86 is at 65MPH in 6th, while the 987.1 is at 75MPH in 5th (base 2008 Boxsters have 5 speeds). The Boxster offers a top down driving experience plus the sounds of the 2.7L flat 6, which you can't get in a twin. The 86 offers more lively engine/transmission/steering responses.

Oh, and the steering wheel in the Boxster IS too big.

I mean, I'm literally cross shopping both so I think it makes sense. Again, on paper performance is very close - they are both tried and true drivers cars that fill a similar niche.

It's either a difference in the two generations, or MT/AT, but for me I can cruise at 80mph in the Gen2 AT in 5th or 6th gear and be well under 4k RPM. Pretty sure 6th was under 3K but I haven't had it on the turnpike in a while.

(I remember because I drove it back on the highway to get home, and I was switching between 5th and 6th to vary the engine load and I wasn't at all concerned about being close to 4000 RPM in either gear.)

I have cross shopped this car.

New, doesn't always mean better, especially when it comes to specific tastes of certain car enthusiasts.

100%

I cross-shopped the 86 and the Fiero (specifically with a 3800SC swap). It depends hugely on what you want from the car. I wanted something cool, fun to drive, etc. that was (more importantly to me) uncommon and didn't have a ton of "X car guys are like Y" kind of stigma.

My wife sees the Fiero as a 30 year-old car that's going to probably be unreliable and definitely consume a ton of money as I fix/improve stuff throughout. So she went out and found the 86 and started dropping hints.

Don't get me wrong - I still want a supercharged mid-engine pocket rocket, but having a car that starts every single time, with a full warranty, and absolutely zero miles worth of worry about what's about to wear out next? That's not hard math. It costs less up front (with financing) and probably less per year (realistically, considering the ongoing project keeping a really nice Fiero running is).

TL;DR - when you look at things with different perspectives, many cars become comparable that are, from another perspective, not remotely so.

It's just another example of things that get regurgitated in media/forums, in this case hydraulic=better, which is not always the case. I just sat through a dinner with some BMW guys heralding hydraulic the end all be all. Oo it's heavier, it's sporty.

Meanwhile, the modern s2k enthusiasts love the s2k steering feel.

Yeah the Cayman with its taller gearing just sorta numbs the whole experience, and with its more capable tire package just feels bored driving around. Granted though I still love Caymans, but the twins have a playfulness that I just have not found elsewhere. The Cayman relative to its competition though has a similar trait, since it's price competitors have gigantic tires, huge power, etc.

I am turning 50 this year and getting a 981 base in the next month or two, strictly for weekend or weekday mountain runs. I will let you know, but it will be strictly a street comparison. I have wanted a Cayman and came close many times, but always felt it was better to burn miles on a Subie. I literally give it a 50:50 chance I think my BRZ is more fun on the street.

^^?

The S2000's rack has always been panned for being numb and offering little feedback. On the plus side its a very quick and direct rack. But i don't see anyone, now or ever, that has praised its feel.

Watch some modern s2000 reviews like Zygrene.

Yeah I’m a subscriber, he does pretty good videos.

I cross shopped a used cayman to the 2022 GR86 before putting a deposit down for the GR86. Similar cost, similar performance.

Agreed, however he has mentioned a few times how the s2000 has great steering feel. It is precise, quick, and direct, but feel is not something it's known for.

Personally, while I understand feel and can discern it, if given the option of more feel vs a quicker rack in a car with good reflexes but with less feel, I'll take the latter. Like say an older Porsche or a car with a manual rack (like some of the CRXs) vs an s2000, personally I prefer the s2000.

Next time you know, someone will start to say the GR86 is better than a Cayman GT4 :lol:
My friend's boss has one. I drove it for a little while. That GT4 is the perfect sport cars. Everything is so precise. German engineering at its best. It's only flaw is that it's too perfect.

So perfect other than its trash gear ratio. :D

I heard someone say gears 1 to 4 in a Cayman are like a bunch of 3rd and 4th gears.

The later Caymans (981 and 982) are geared about one gear taller than the Twins (particularly the 2017+ with the 4.3 final drive).
At 7000 RPM,
2017 Twin 2nd is 54 MPH, 718 Cayman 1st is 44 MPH.
Twin 3rd is 77, Cayman 2nd is 75.
Twin 4th is 99, Cayman 3rd is 104.
Twin 5th is 119, Cayman 4th is 130.

But you can buy at least 3 twins maybe 4 twins for a GT4, so there’s that.

Troof. I never had a problem with my AP1's steering, but '17 BRZ steering feel is far better.

Haha, 100% me too! I went from a manual 240Z rack with ALL the feelz, to an S2000 with none of the feelz but precise and QUICK. Would love to transplant S2k (or better still, BRZ) steering into the 240Z...

987 Cayman steering feel was a *tremendous* disappointment to me. I wouldn't go so far as to say I hated it, but I *greatly* prefer my '17 BRZ's steering. While I don't wanna like the 981 because it's so much *bulkier* visually, I do think its electric steering is an *improvement* over the 987 on the street and track. Unpopular opinion but there it is...

Dude, I was unimpressed with the steering feel of the GT4 as well. I mean, too lazy to look up the rack ratio, I mean its quick compared to most cars, but felt not as quick as an AP1 or a twin.

Don't get me wrong, all still very very good, non-deal breakers, but if we're having a discussion about it, that was my takeaway too.

I think alot of the steering feel mystique that comes with older Porsches have more to do with them being much simpler mechanical machines, with its lighter weight and far less isolation, than having the engine in the back.

Like when I drive go karts, yeah I can feel through the steering the front tires losing grip, but I can also feel and hear it as well, along with the steering feeling lighter. I will happily trade that little bit of extra feel for the fact that I don't get an arm workout or having the car wanting to rip my arms off when something goes wrong, lol.

switching back and forth between s2000 and I do feel theres really a dead center or something on the s2.

I watched the review and I can say that it is quite fair and even between the two cars. It seems that the biggest difference is the layout between the middle and front engine. The feel of driving a mid-engine car is quite evident. Personally, I would go with a 6cyl Cayman if it was possible to afford and maintain it.

Watched them for a while, but didn't enjoy the self destructing engines, which can end up pretty expensive, since the later DI ones were out of budget. Though i happen to have bought another car which also have engines that self destruct, although cheaper, and mine had already blown before i bought it ��

Shrug, I've owned a 2007 Cayman. In fact, it was around the time the Twins were releasing, and I ended up in the Cayman because I didn't want to wait for stock of the Twins to be available. I was lucky enough to be friends with a guy who won (whatever the lottery name was) and got one of the first 5 cars in the country and IIRC the first on the east coast. After driving his BRZ and him driving my Cayman, the Cayman is the superior car in every way.

With that being said, the Cayman's street driving in no way beats the Twins. The Cayman is just too capable, and in order to push it the same to the limits the same way you can a Twin on the street, you have to be willing to risk serious charges. On the track the Cayman beats Twins all day long.

EDIT: I say that because I drove them, back-to-back, at Summit Point Main in September 2012.

I did this comparison last year before I ordered the BRZ. The sweet spot for the cayman for me is the 987.2 base. It received the IMS-less 9A1 engine so no engine booms, BUT it also retained port injection rather than the DI systems in the 987.2S and the 911s. So you get no IMS bearing problems, and no DI carbon buildup problems.

A ~60k mile example with manual transmission comes in a bit more expensive than a new BRZ. It makes 20-25hp more than the BRZ but it also weighs ~100lbs more. 0-60 is basically a wash. No LSD on the Porsche and the stupid long gears are a major knock against it for fun on the street. Add the fact that I can get my kids to school in the BRZ and that it has a warranty, and the decision made itself clear.

If I didn’t have to worry about real world practicality or upkeep/repair cost, I would have gone with the cayman and put in a helical LSD and a shorter ratio. Stock for stock the BRZ is a difficult package to beat.

I think it's a fair comparison if it's someone's second or third vehicle, and miles will be limited. For someone's only/main vehicle, it'd be tough to not go with the new car. A few years ago, I damn near traded in a Focus ST for a '06 Cayman S, but the thought of what happens when something goes wrong, and I would have had to buy a $15k engine in what was my only car, I just couldn't do it. The increased regular maintenance costs I was fine with, but that time something major broke and cost 5 digits, I just couldn't afford that at the time. Also, the 987 Cayman is dated on the interior, which matters for a daily driver.

You don't have to wait until the "later" Caymans to get that crap gear ratios. The 6sp manual ratios have been the same from the 2006 Cayman S up until the present (base 987 ratios are prob different).

Yeah :bs:

Have you driven them back to back? Because I have, my 2006 and a 2014 loaner. 981's EPS was VERY numb in comparison.

Well, it is slightly better in the 987 (if only be a few MPH).

BTW, this reminds me that driving the Twins like a dog leg shifter would be about the same as a Cayman :lol:

I've driven them back-to-back on the street and at Watkins Glen, Palmer MA, and New Hampshire Motor Speedway. IMO the 987s steering, while definitely *heavier*, doesn't really provide much if any more *feel*. 987 steering is also slower, and the variable ratio is more noticeable, to an annoying degree. 981 steering feels more precise. Surprising amount of kickback over bumps in the 987 as well.

I definitely prefer the 981 steering to the 987. And if I could have had BRZ steering in the 987 I probably would have kept it...

Not sure I follow you. The ratios are literally the same. 1-6 and the final drive.
All identical. The 987 does, however, have lower engine speed redlines, which necessitates shifting to the next gear sooner.

:cheers:

I was referring to the base 987.1 with the 5 speed which is geared a little shorter in the lower gears (although the taller final drive almost makes it a wash with the later 6 speeds of the base and S).