Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community - FT86CLUB

- GR86 General Topics (2nd Gen 2022+ Toyota 86) (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=97)

- - ‘22 GR86 vs 2010 Cayman (987.2) (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149779)

Quote:

Originally Posted by midenginebias (Post 3523386)

New, doesn't always mean better, especially when it comes to specific tastes of certain car enthusiasts.

100%

I cross-shopped the 86 and the Fiero (specifically with a 3800SC swap). It depends hugely on what you want from the car. I wanted something cool, fun to drive, etc. that was (more importantly to me) uncommon and didn't have a ton of "X car guys are like Y" kind of stigma.

My wife sees the Fiero as a 30 year-old car that's going to probably be unreliable and definitely consume a ton of money as I fix/improve stuff throughout. So she went out and found the 86 and started dropping hints.

Don't get me wrong - I still want a supercharged mid-engine pocket rocket, but having a car that starts every single time, with a full warranty, and absolutely zero miles worth of worry about what's about to wear out next? That's not hard math. It costs less up front (with financing) and probably less per year (realistically, considering the ongoing project keeping a really nice Fiero running is).

TL;DR - when you look at things with different perspectives, many cars become comparable that are, from another perspective, not remotely so.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZDan (Post 3523172)

I bought a 2011 Cayman 2.9 early in 2019 and drove it back to back on the street and at the track vs. my '17 PP throughout the year. Idea was to keep the one I liked best overall. I kept the BRZ and it wasn't even close. The hydraulic steering in the 987.2 is only OK if you ask me. Feel is honestly not the best, kinda heavyish but not in a good way, seemed to mask feel as if it has too much caster, and kickback is a real thing with it. Also it's way too slow on-center, and the variable rack is noticeable and for me highly annoying. And the steering wheel is too big! I would have LOVED to transplant the BRZ's quicker steering (and smaller steering wheel) into the 987... 2.9 flat-6 sounded super-sweet (esp w/ Borla exhaust), but I found the power/torque curve to be a bit boring. Torque is falling off gently with rpm from midrange on up to the extent that I would have to look at my dyno sheet to convince myself that I should rev to redline every shift to optimize performance at the track. Whereas the BRZ's 2.0 has a rising torque curve up to ~6500rpm and feels like it pulls harder (relatively!) from there up to redline. The Porsche's engine feels less rev-happy, which makes some sense given the same 7400rpm redline and it making 91hp/liter vs. 2.0 BRZ making 102.5hp/liter. Porsche's sport seats were the best thing about the car, LOVED them! But I found switchgear to be less ergonomic and with subjectively *worse* haptic feel.

Most importantly, the BRZ was/is fricking FUN and engaging to drive even at 2/10ths going to the store in town. Porsche was mostly aloof, and god forbid I forgot to smash the "sport" button, otherwise throttle response made the car feel sloooow for 99% of street driving.

I sold the Porsche, and honestly I don't really miss it. I would have *missed* the BRZ...

It's just another example of things that get regurgitated in media/forums, in this case hydraulic=better, which is not always the case. I just sat through a dinner with some BMW guys heralding hydraulic the end all be all. Oo it's heavier, it's sporty.

Meanwhile, the modern s2k enthusiasts love the s2k steering feel.

Yeah the Cayman with its taller gearing just sorta numbs the whole experience, and with its more capable tire package just feels bored driving around. Granted though I still love Caymans, but the twins have a playfulness that I just have not found elsewhere. The Cayman relative to its competition though has a similar trait, since it's price competitors have gigantic tires, huge power, etc.

I am turning 50 this year and getting a 981 base in the next month or two, strictly for weekend or weekday mountain runs. I will let you know, but it will be strictly a street comparison. I have wanted a Cayman and came close many times, but always felt it was better to burn miles on a Subie. I literally give it a 50:50 chance I think my BRZ is more fun on the street.

^^?

The S2000's rack has always been panned for being numb and offering little feedback. On the plus side its a very quick and direct rack. But i don't see anyone, now or ever, that has praised its feel.

Quote:

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k (Post 3523641)

Watch some modern s2000 reviews like Zygrene.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDonEffect (Post 3523786)

Watch some modern s2000 reviews like Zygrene.

Yeah I’m a subscriber, he does pretty good videos.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tcoat (Post 3523010)

Who does a head to head between cars that are 12 years apart?

I cross shopped a used cayman to the 2022 GR86 before putting a deposit down for the GR86. Similar cost, similar performance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirty Harry (Post 3523808)

Yeah I’m a subscriber, he does pretty good videos.

Agreed, however he has mentioned a few times how the s2000 has great steering feel. It is precise, quick, and direct, but feel is not something it's known for.

Personally, while I understand feel and can discern it, if given the option of more feel vs a quicker rack in a car with good reflexes but with less feel, I'll take the latter. Like say an older Porsche or a car with a manual rack (like some of the CRXs) vs an s2000, personally I prefer the s2000.

Next time you know, someone will start to say the GR86 is better than a Cayman GT4 :lol:
My friend's boss has one. I drove it for a little while. That GT4 is the perfect sport cars. Everything is so precise. German engineering at its best. It's only flaw is that it's too perfect.

Quote:

Originally Posted by James H (Post 3523925)

So perfect other than its trash gear ratio. :D

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzmitry (Post 3523956)

So perfect other than its trash gear ratio. :D

I heard someone say gears 1 to 4 in a Cayman are like a bunch of 3rd and 4th gears.

The later Caymans (981 and 982) are geared about one gear taller than the Twins (particularly the 2017+ with the 4.3 final drive).
At 7000 RPM,
2017 Twin 2nd is 54 MPH, 718 Cayman 1st is 44 MPH.
Twin 3rd is 77, Cayman 2nd is 75.
Twin 4th is 99, Cayman 3rd is 104.
Twin 5th is 119, Cayman 4th is 130.

Quote:

Originally Posted by James H (Post 3523925)

But you can buy at least 3 twins maybe 4 twins for a GT4, so there’s that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDonEffect (Post 3523923)

Agreed, however he has mentioned a few times how the s2000 has great steering feel. It is precise, quick, and direct, but feel is not something it's known for.

Troof. I never had a problem with my AP1's steering, but '17 BRZ steering feel is far better.

Quote:

Personally, while I understand feel and can discern it, if given the option of more feel vs a quicker rack in a car with good reflexes but with less feel, I'll take the latter. Like say an older Porsche or a car with a manual rack (like some of the CRXs) vs an s2000, personally I prefer the s2000.

Haha, 100% me too! I went from a manual 240Z rack with ALL the feelz, to an S2000 with none of the feelz but precise and QUICK. Would love to transplant S2k (or better still, BRZ) steering into the 240Z...

987 Cayman steering feel was a *tremendous* disappointment to me. I wouldn't go so far as to say I hated it, but I *greatly* prefer my '17 BRZ's steering. While I don't wanna like the 981 because it's so much *bulkier* visually, I do think its electric steering is an *improvement* over the 987 on the street and track. Unpopular opinion but there it is...