In the end though, your definition of a "driving enthusiast" is just that, your definition. Wanting a manual transmission or a light car defines a person no more a "driving enthusiast" than does wanting an EV that weighs 5,000lbs but handles like its on rails.

In the end, I think I'm with @Tcoat on this (assuming I read him right) the word "enthusiast" really only means whatever the speaker/writer wants it to mean, which in the end mean it means not much of anything except a way to add some level of exclusivity to something that doesn't really need it.

99% of the people that are enthusiastic about cars, drive them. They just drive them enthusiastically in different ways.

I'm talking about people who enjoy driving lightweight sports cars or "performance" cars whatever you call it (S-chassis, 86 for example, you get the point) on race tracks grip or drift, or on mountain roads. Who modify their cars improving their handling, engine performance, etc. People to whom hearing exhaust or engine is a music to their ears. It's actually shocking that such people aren't a majority on a forum dedicated to such a car. Maybe it's just loud vocal minority, who knows.

Just check out Best Motoring or Video Option - best illustration of enthusiasts.

So making my point that an “enthusiast” can only be somebody that agrees with your preferences.
Many many many modded cars didn’t improve shit.
I love a good exhaust but that does not mean for one second I like every exhaust just because it is loud.
Pop and bang tunes are just for morons the need attention because their dad left before they were born and mommy had to lock them in the closet when her male “friends” came over.

I like to listen to pops&bangs but I wouldn't do it on my car just because I think such tune is not good for the engine especially when you take the car to a track or just drive "spiritually". I'm a fan of a tune that makes engine more responsive, and not only increases it's peak power and torque, but also improves it throughout the rev range. If you have a catless exhaust the car will shoot flames, but it will happen naturally under certain conditions, not artificially whenever you touch the accelerator. That I like even better.

But that's because people who modded them are dumb and uneducated. There are also many cars that are modded by people who know what they're doing.

Again, if anything can mean enthusiast then nothing means enthusiast. The word no longer carries any meaning without explanation, which isn’t done.

Again, it isn’t my definition. It is the common definition. We can’t ignore the common usage of a word because there is also a general definition of the word. Maybe the future definition of a driving enthusiast will be a Tesla driver using AutoPilot instead of sleeping in the back seat using FSD, but right now, ask a motor journalist what a driving enthusiast is or what a driver’s car is and it will conjure a similar definition to what I defined. Watch enough content and this is patently apparent.

I feel like we are having a vocabulary lesson on the common usage of woman or man in a gender/transgender debate. Yes, woman and man can be used to describe a wide range of characteristics among people, but there is a common usage and common occurrence. If I said man, I would expect people to not be confused that I’m talking about the common usage of male and not potentially referring to a non-binary, transgender male unless clarified.

BTW, 5,000lb EVs don’t handle like they are on rails. They handle better than other 5,000lb ICEs, and their weight keeps them planted to the road like a diesel truck, so they don’t get squirly. They can be fast like a GTR is big and fast or a Veyron is big and fast, but it isn’t a pleasure to drive in the corners. It isn’t rewarding at 10/10ths, irregardless of track times.

so then if i don't track the car, don't race the car, or work on the car much, what am i?!?

https://memegenerator.net/img/instan.../what-am-i.jpg

Oh for sure. But because you don’t do it doesn’t mean you are not an “enthusiast “.

You are still applying your definition to everything. Who says the GTR and Veyron isn’t satisfying? The guys that own them would probably disagree. That is your own opinion not a supportable stance. Same as who is an “enthusiast “ is not a supportable one.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threa...ndling.135248/
https://www.topspeed.com/cars/car-ne...80422.amp.html

Even the CEO of Bugatti said the Veyron wasn’t a great handling car when describing the improvements and goals of the Chiron. But that is just his anecdotal, subjective opinion. Can someone drive a Veyron at 10/10ths and enjoy it? Yes. It could have average to subpar slalom, 60-0 or skid pad tests for its price. It could be numb and not communicative. It could be overpowered by electronics working in the background and making it easy for a poor driver to handle the car. By these qualities and metrics, it could be great because opinions are subjective.

Celine Dion sings…
Someone’s three year old sings…
Mother claims daughter is better.
Music taste is subjective.
Therefore, we have no metrics to claim either is better.

Why do people even listen to motor journalists if their opinions are subjective and baseless in what anyone else can expect to experience?

The position that enthusiast is used to describe a typical brand of driver isn’t subjective. That claim is objective and testable. Just because we can’t resolve it here doesn’t change that fact. The common usage is the common usage irregardless of how others try to apply the word over a broad range of people in a more obscure manner.

Do you ever push the car into the higher tenths of what it can handle? No, then you might be just as satisfied with something less capable from a driving enthusiast perspective. If you just like the looks then you are in the same boat as everyone else who enjoys their car for the subjective. If it is something else then it is something else. Nothing wrong with it.

so what title is that?

i need to make the windshield banner so they stop trying to race me at the stop lights.

Poser :D :iono:

I don’t know man. No one tries to drag race a Prius or Corolla. Maybe people know the car is slow, but looks like it is trying to convey it’s fast, so they want to check the over-posturing. People are silly. I had a BMW fly past then slow down in front of me and take off like he wanted to show me that I couldn’t catch him. Meanwhile, I am flipping through music. Like if the dude wanted to race then that wasn’t how it is done—in single file with no warning of starting a race.

I find more trucks posing than cars where I live. Some people just like the shape of the 86 or the ride of of a lifted truck. Ehhh. It is what it is. I don’t see a lifted truck and assume there is an off-road enthusiast behind the wheel—actually quite the opposite. Same with most 86 owners; I don’t assume they are driving enthusiasts, or even broadly, a car enthusiast. I typically need to see a few mods to make the assumption that they are probably a car enthusiast and perhaps a driving enthusiast. If it is bone stock then anything is possible, but it could be a Prius driver behind the wheel too who is just in a different shaped commuter.

https://images.cdn.circlesix.co/imag...2e6a5e55e6.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/7c/46/a8/7...unny-stuff.jpg

Poser:
a person who acts in an affected manner in order to impress others

But I didn't do anything with my car to impress others...

Maybe it’s the stylish spoiler. Aesthetic mods can attract the wrong attention. There are levels of posing, and you might be on the subtle end of the spectrum. Car itself is kind of a poser.

https://cdn.carbuzz.com/gallery-imag...100/106148.jpg
https://images.cdn.circlesix.co/imag...b45a3052a1.jpg
https://youtu.be/zOXKR1R8EaU

Well this has turned into a useless thread.

We had worse. Don't complaint

Well since the original question is almost rhetorical and the first few pages covered all the facts we know then the rest is just gravy anyway.

Not true though. They do NA Porsches like the 987.2 Cayman S for example.

That was a unique case and also with assistance with some other tuner yielding like 3-6% bump.

If you look at their current available lineup it's all FI.

Sorry for long paragraph and going back to this topic but felt like touching on this.


I've been on the forum as long as @Tcoat and sold my 15 a bit ago. You can see what I ran in my signature. I ran an OFT E85 stage 2, and the stage 1 93+ tune with tweaks recommended by Wayno and Steve99 mixed in that I figured out in romraider.

@Tcoat is definitely right in his statements and their is no need to defend Shiv. Also @OkieSnuffBox explained it best the same way I felt messing with tunes, it was fun at the beginning but an unnecessary chore and stupid to play around with later. Nearly every version of the tunes if you had a CAI or UEL required maf scaling, LTFT or other edits. Things you would only notice if you datalogged it and had Steve or Wayno take a look at your logs.

You get some advantages like, not locking your ecu, easy custom modding with romraider etc. But all that becomes moot point when you try to reach out to Shiv. You really shouldn't have to rely on guys in Australia who are doing a service for basically free to assist you in dialing in an off-the-shelf tune.

He hasn't even been on this forum since 2018, his facebook page for support is filled with people having to help each other. People on this forum and that facebook page also began going way too aggressive with the pop & crack tunes. I remember way back when assisting with screenshots of how to do it in romraider in the big thread here on ft86club. I removed it after about a week of fun with it. However, when started the overrun settings led to a lighter burble and not an intentional pop and bang, now its obscene and unnecessary.

Also good luck finding a reputable tuner that will edit the roms for you without locking their work, something ecutek allows them to do. That's why people would go to Steve and Wayno who would do amazing work and give example posts. They would go over logs in datazap better than Shiv's late to game e-tuning datalogging.

Best bet is to get something with a reputable tuner behind it if you plan to go anything past stage1, most if not all will take into account 1-3 datalog sessions for free and make sure everything is buttoned up one time. If I splurge on a GR86 that will definitely be what I do.

Counterpoint.

I had an OFT and was very happy with what I got for the money and would do it again if a similar option were offered for Gen2.

I was very happy with the price ($500 all-in for which I could probably get back $250 if I tried to sell back). I was happy with the convenience and the easy to use self-contained interface. I used Stage1 and Stage2 93 tunes and the Stage 2+ e85 - they all worked fine "off-the-shelf." I had plans on having Steve or Wayno optimize my tune (I was almost exclusively on the e85 Stage2+ tune) if I had stuck with it. For what you paid, and what you got, I think it was a GREAT deal.

What I don't understand is people that seem to think Shiv should have provided full-service customized tunes/solutions while paying a mere $500 including tunes AND hardware. If you wanted that, then by all means, you should have gone Ecutek and paid the $1,500 plus to get initially started, and, presumably, more every time you wanted to go into your tuner to change/adjust something.

BTW, I realize Shiv also offered some custom options (at relatively reasonable prices) and that he may have fallen down somewhat on customer service there. Still, with all of the institutional knowledge on this board, as well as guys like Steve and Wayno (who did lots of help for free and even made a little WELL-DESERVED money in the process), it seemed most people could eventually get where they wanted to go.

I am sort of sick of people complaining about Shiv/OFT without acknowledging the considerable value having that option provided. I really hope there is something similar available eventually for Gen2.

If I buy a hammer from home depot do I need customer support to teach me how to use it?

They do NA 911's too haha. So not exactly accurate.

Word around the campfire is that ECUtek hasn't even started working on cracking the 2nd gen ECU. Just like they never bothered with the ND2 Miata.

I'm hoping that changes.

You?
Probably

The new gen is pretty stout as it is. Provided it doesn't morph into a yugo when the Temps climb like the first Gen did it might not need tuning. I've read that the new vette ecu was recently cracked but they couldn't find any gains naturally aspirated.

It’s already 90F here, power feels fine.

I'm not sure if they imported an ECU to start with, but they don't even have the BRZ/86 in the UK yet do they?

I just got an email back from them, paraphrasing they said they have done some preliminary work and will continue to do more shortly, but don't have an estimated time for releasing an ECUTek tuning platform for the 2nd gens.

Literally any stock performance car will benefit from a catless exhaust and a good tune (ideally dyno tune).

Agreed, but the Vette isn't as focused on getting decent mpg and emissions ratings as the twins are likely. So I'm sure there will still be a little bit to squeeze out (just maybe not as much). If you're talking in pure stock form, there might not be much other than reducing the small dip there is in torque now. But changing out exhaust parts that hold a catalytic converter and tuning up for it are guaranteed to give you a little power.

I'm not concerned about a 91/93 tune that might make 5whp more. I want an E85+header tune (flex fuel kit) and hold out hope that Edelbrock will make a CARB legal supercharger kit for the 2nd gen.

I also got an email back from OFT. They said they are working on their own 2022 BRZ and it's currently their top priority, but also don't have a release date or any idea when that might be.

I'm not as much concerned about big HP gains from a tune, more like getting rid of rev hang, improving engine breaking, maybe flat foot shifting. Junk like that.

I don’t think the rev hang is bad once you’re in the higher rev range. Once im over 4.5k it’s responsive enough for downshifting and heel/toe. It’s not like the ZC6 where the whole rev range was pretty bad.

I am very late on this thread but to add to TCoat's comment, another push to crack down on this actually came as the result of the VW emissions cheating scandal.

The fact that a stock, well disguised ECU tune can circumvent *all* emissions testing out on the market was such a slap in the face that there was no other alternative but to start heavily enforcing existing guidelines and chase after those that use a similar route.

We can blame the government all we want but auto makers themselves also made the landscape not friendly for enthusiasts as a whole.

Yep the makers have played a part.
The auto makers will also start campaigning against the nasty, evil, ICE engines (even their own) as the clock ticks closer to the 2035 "all" EV mandate that they have agreed with. We are already seeing the beginnings of this.

https://cdn.motor1.com/images/mgl/lE...ev-lineup.webp

“This investment will help usher in more affordable electrified vehicles for U.S. consumers, significantly reduce carbon emissions, and importantly, create even more American jobs tied to the future of mobility.”

https://pressroom.toyota.com/toyota-...on-investment/

I reached out to Edelbrock over a month ago asking if they had any development plans and got zero response..

Sad Times..

They can't work on developing a kit until they have a tuning solution.

ECUTek never bothered cracking the ND2 Miata ECU, so Edelbrock never developed a kit for the ND2, but they have one for the ND1.