The difference between the ND1 and the ND2 are pretty subtle compared to Gen1 and Gen2 twin. And some of those differences are offset once modded.
There are people having success in ND1's in STR and BSP. Those cares are close enough that it would make 0 sense to class them differently. Stock tune Gen2 makes significantly more power than an STX prepped Gen1. We mentioned Charlotte a few times. I know that Simmons is good at prepping cars (he's probably built more ST cars than anyone else in the world:bellyroll:), but a brand new platform without a tune was already raw timing 2 guys that trophied at the Finale last year.

Also, if we are looking to kill off a current class leader, STX was making better numbers than STR.

Obviously I'm biased, owning an STX car and probably in a position with this economy where I just quit the sport if my car is no longer competitive, but it is honestly kind of rare that the majority of the new better version owners (especially those familiar with the Gen1) don't want to take over the old car's class. I was really excited for Ken to run his RX8 this year and show that STX isn't a 1 car class and I'm excited to see what Pallotta can do in that car (though we'll try like heck to beat him). ST needs a "cheap" car option that doesn't require junkyard trips to build and maintain.

The difference between the power in the ND1 and ND2 and the gen 1 and gen 2 cars is roughly the same percentage-wise, and that's accounting for the gen 2 cars being underrated. The chassis is so much the same that almost every part bolts right up.

The first gen cars are dominant in two classes, one of which is a spec class specifically made for the car. They shouldn't have that kind of dominance in multiple classes when the second gen car can barely touch a trophy. I'm still of the belief that SSC should include the gen 1.5 cars as well.

I don't understand what SSC has to do with Street Touring.

False.


They make the same power until ~6500 RPM where the ND2 just pulls ahead. I worked a LOT with Karwan on his tune for the ND2s and I have a LOT of seat time in both generation cars over the past few years. We've tested it time and time again at locals and national events and it's pretty much irrelevant which ND you're in. The ND2 is harder to drive than the ND1 because of various drivetrain protection systems that are undefeatable too, so there's that.

I still think you're barking up the wrong tree. Move the ND out of STR to be with the Fiata or make an STR2 and move S2k, NC, new Twin there and Fiata to STR.

Happy to find these posts - I was working corner 4 during your run group and, as a former gen1 owner, I have to say your BRZ sounds great :thumbup: - best new one I've heard for sure - maybe best of both gens.


PS - S/ST video looks 'tame' after watching M video for a while :) - e.g. youtu.be/3-pGX2yJ2P4

It's more or less street touring lite, and is a class dedicated to the first-gen twins that allows for mods, be-it spec mods.

False.

I'm barking up the correct tree. You gave more great examples of a new car coming out and killing the previous-gen or dominant car. STR S2k and NC were all but killed by the ND.

New generations of cars come out and are faster than the old ones. That's the way all racing disciplines work. Short of creating a new class every time a new generation of a car comes out, it's how it's going to be. The first-gen twins have had a long run of being competitive in multiple classes, but things change. If you buy a new car and expect it to be super competitive for 10+ years, then that's on you. There are cheaper classes that don't change often, see STS and ES.

:thumbdown:


STAC can right the wrongs of putting the ND in STR in the first place and instead you'd rather kill a different healthy class? :sigh:

This is exactly where I landed in my thinking as well.

I should write a letter here soon...

Having ran it and STX, I'd say that it is more street plus. And I can't imagine very many wanting to spend a bunch of money on bushings and emissions junk and fasteners and ECUs and whatnot to drive a slower/less fun car while people whisper about you having a tune.

To me this seems like the general way ST needs to go - a rethink of the classes/balance and making it a more enticing next step. Likely needs to go hand in hand with sunsetting Street Prepared to avoid the "we already have too many classes!" response. I've got a general feel that the overall structure across all classes is dated and doesn't fit the modern era of cars/enthusiasts - no secret that CAM and XS are just band-aids for a larger issue. But I appreciate that you can't just go and making sweeping changes that screw over people who have years of development in their cars.

Disclaimer: I'm just a random midpack autocrosser who has no influence over any *AC members despite what I might think after there's a few beers in me at a tour event.

From what I've heard, this sort of sweeping re-org is coming...

I support it as much as it will annoy people it's best for the sport.

I've heard the demise of SP is coming but not much about the rest of the broader class structures. It'll be interesting but agree that it's best for the sport.

I agree, it probably needs to happen if we want to see any long-term growth and progress. Interested in seeing what happens...

The SCCA classing system is a complete disaster and needs to be scrapped entirely. Having a dominant car that you must have and then changing that every few years is insanity and it drives regular people away. The biggest draw to autox is that you can use your normal car, but then most people go to a few events, realize they can never win in their car and quit. The NASA style performance point system is so much better. It lets you buy the car you want, mod it to the level you want, and be competitive.

^ Partially true. I would argue the frustrated new-ish person ought to consider the right vehicle & prep as a necessary but very much insufficient criteria for success. I suspect most people in this thread know it already.

If you don’t spend enough time focused on getting better, it doesn’t really matter what car you lose in.

My video's from the NJ Pro

https://youtu.be/JLfnGtVyS4E

https://youtu.be/LfIIZiLc3Ts

Only hardcore autox junkies base their car choice on autox classing, and even they can get burned after a single season.


Some drivers can have fun without being competitive, but most want to measure their success and progress through competition and they realize quickly that they would have to change cars to do that so they quit. I've seen this often even with just minor mods. Someone shows up with a great autox car but they just spent a bunch on some mod (usually with little or no performance gain) that throws them into an insane class and they never come back. The performance point system solves this.

I always get amused when I read how to set up an ND Miata to be competitive in CS: huge front bar, long and stiff rear bump stops to effectively increase the spring rate... All those things in a class that's supposed to be "beginner friendly, as little mods as possible".

And then the twins aren't allowed any reasonable way to add front camber in DS.
Or that 10mm issue with the RLCAs on gen2 cars even in STR.

We’re probably in agreement on the vast majority of the challenges and reality. However I don’t see a point system as a fix though, because the real issue is many new people grossly overestimate their skill and a “right” to be competitive.

I started as that person with a minor mod that buried me in 2013. I'm still here.

Having fun with your friends and having a competitive class to play in is what matters. Locally we had a "catch-all" class that made it tons of fun. SCCA made the right move with the XS class.



Having run CS in an ND very competitively... and having driven a LOT of other NDs in CS and helped with setup on many of them.... Bumpstops are $20 each and easy to install. That said, the ND2 bumpstops on stock shocks and a cheap $200 front swaybar has won national events. Front swaybar is a necessity on pretty much every street class car, so calling out the ND for that is pretty disingenuous.

Every street class car besides some SS cars and Corvettes is camber limited. Part of the point of street class is no major mods... Camber is easy on some cars, but on many cars it involves expensive parts.


The rear control arm thing is annoying, but people like a certain asshole from Texas already abuse rules thoroughly and you stack up a ton of small things like that and it's a big advantage.



Having run autocrosses with points systems for mods, it doesn't really fix anything. You just end up with different cars that are competitive, but still clearly one car that people will trend towards because it has an advantage.

On your latter point, 1000% yes. So many novices show up and get frustrated that they sucked and blame everything but their own lack of talent. It's easy to blame the car or the rules...

For the record, it was out of lack of knowledge rather than bad intent. I only ever looked at setup for twins (as I have one) and NDs (as my gf has one).

Disingenuous was definitely stronger wording than I intended, my apologies.

In any case, street class is stupid and should be avoided. ST is awesome, even if we're underdogs the cars are fun and we don't have to tune the car with bumpstops.

Also if you ever get a chance to install a non-Karcepts front bar on an ND Miata, you will get to appreciate how easy EVERYTHING is on our cars...

Yeah.... that's a no from me dawg. Karcepts bar was only easy because it involved the use of a sawzall haha

They just need the possibility to be competitive. Also, after you buy and build a car, you should have some expectation to not be crushed by a classing change the next year.



With performance points you can decide which combination of mods is best for you and your car. The system is dependent on making small adjustments so a dominant car loses a couple points and has to remove a part or move up a class, and the driver gets to choose. It self balances and is as close to fair as I have seen. Camber is a perfect example because we need it to make tires last, if its not allowed at all your only option is to change cars or destroy tires. That's expensive and dumb.

I've run with both styles of classing (SCCA and NASA) and both have their flaws. NASA's is more approachable for the average person but there's too few classes and too much disparity in cars within a given class even if they're maxed on points. SCCA's system is better for close competition but it does require that you build to the rules and it will fuck you if you're not building for the sport. IMO, as I think I stated earlier, the SCCA classing setup is really due for a refresh/overall, but I do prefer SCCA-style classing and the closer competition it brings.

I haven't looked at NASA-X points in over a decade, but not a fan.

1) The classes are really unbalanced. I recall going through the points and realizing that you could run stuff like a 1500 lb turbo 1g CRX on slicks against a stock Mini Cooper S.

2) I like building to constraints. It is kind of like how a lot of golfers can go to the course and keep their ball between the 2 trees and on the fairway. But then they go out to the range and there really isn't anything to reign them in and they spray the ball all over the place because they don't really have defined targets and they are just out there yamming on balls.

It really only works because people are casual about it.

NASA does take it too far. They try to mix everything together and also are way too lax about adjusting the points based on results. You would need some basic categories like street stockish / modded street / full race builds, with maybe 5 groups in each for a total of 15.


SCCA has what 40?? classes, and then for some crazy reason also a ladies version of each class to make it 80!!! Each with a specific mod list and dominant car that changes every few years. They have so many that at local events its common end up in a class by yourself. Unfortunately SCCA only listens to the fanatics at the cost of the new blood. They have come up with the excellent PAX system for cars of different classes to compete, but need something like that within each class and then you could merge a lot of classes.

Most every club in our region runs PAX superclasses so that everyone has someone to run against. So like STS, STR, and STX will run against each other on index within one class. Also useful to run an Open Pax/Pro Pax class for the fast guys to run against one another on index.

You are still stuck with the same issue if your car is not competitive in its class it can't be competitive in PAX either. It sort of works for the pros (they all have the right cars) and novices (none of them have the right cars), but its a bandaid. Imagine a PAX within each category, over time it would balance all cars and you could just buy the car you want.

Sort of the breaks of the game.

Not every car needs to be competitive, and making that balance of power work only works (prob only short term) with a benevolent dictatorship instead of a volunteer board driven organization.

A thought occurred to me regarding classing and even though I'm not that passionate about this, I do like the critical thinking it requires.

It seems to me that the old saying of "there is no replacement for displacement" in the drag racing world is a similar idea here. There is no replacement for less weight in most of these classes. Power to weight ratio only takes you so far and adding more power to a heavier car doesn't guarantee that it will be able to beat a lighter, smaller car or even be competitive against it.

The group may be trying to figure out the problem from the wrong angle. You might find a way to work through the problem if you take a different angle.

What would it take for the 2022 86 platform to truly be competitive with the ND2's in STR (for example)?

Is there a scenario where the 86 would be competitive with the ND2?

Is there a scenario within the rules where the 86 would be competitive with the ND2?

On paper the power to weight and torque to weight ratios show the 86 having an advantage. Is this just a case of too much weight and the offsetting power/torque aren't enough?

More power won't overcome extra weight without more rubber on the ground.

A twin with header and full exhaust has the same identical thrust as the ND2 from 30-55 mph. We tested.

The ND's on 225 and 8" wheels would make it closer but probably still not enough.

Fair enough. STR is limited to a 255 wide tire so I can see where that would be a problem. Is that it though?

So, it's really just a limit based on the weight difference then? It's just that the GR86 weighs too much?

I'm not sure any of this is really a "problem".

I mean, it might be a problem for someone with a new twin that wants to be competitive in ST trim. But on a macro level, I'm not sure that a new twin without a tune being slower than an ND2 represents an inherent problem in how hundreds of cars are classed across 40 classes.

I'm not sure any of this is really a "problem".

I mean, it might be a problem for someone with a new twin that wants to be competitive in ST trim. But on a macro level, I'm not sure that a new twin without a tune being slower than an ND2 represents an inherent problem in how hundreds of cars are classed across 40 classes.

F=ma

F is the force the tires can impart to turn the car
M is the mass of the car
A is the acceleration, how quick the car will turn

Heavier cars can’t turn as well unless you add more tires to it. With the same tires the Miata should be quicker through every sweeper, slalom, and offset. Add in that it has better suspension design, smaller dimensions, and as above as good acceleration, you’ll have to drive your balls off to beat one in equal prep.

Also like Steve points out, it’s not that big a deal, the cars aren’t super common yet, still relatively expensive, and will eventually (hopefully) grow into a competitive ST? class in a few years. Sorry not every chassis can win every year, scca gives a healthy amount of stable parity for extremely tight competition, if you don’t want to fit in their boxes there’s plenty of other places to play, they’re just lonelier until you go make them cool.