Gen1.5 BRZ to ND2 long term ownership analysis

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***This is not a review, simply my opinions. I purchase cars to learn more about myself. With my ND purchase I've learned I'm not a convertible person, and in my opinion a brz to miata comparison is apples to oranges. I will admittingly be more harsh on my ND than for what it deserves. A ND is a good car, its just not MY KIND of vehicle. End of public service announcement***

Ive modded both my vehicles after driving them stock to try and appease my personal interests.
'17 BRZ mods included: tomei headers, borla exhaust, OFT tune, STI front lip, TSW wheels, Eibach sport and then pro springs
'19 ND2 Club, GWR strut tower bar, Fox adjustable shocks, Spyder Grille, OFT center exist exhaust, Delrin door bushings

Questions you should ask yourself:
The question shouldn't be can you basically not have a trunk. It's actually; can the people in your life handle that you don't have a trunk?
You may be willing to make attempts using it, but excuses aplenty arise from potential passengers, especially if your Miata is sitting right next to another practical vehicle. And then at that moment I'm asking myself what's the point of owning if my passengers aren't willing to compromise like I am?

Are you actually a convertible person?
I found I rarely put the top down in the summer time. The RF cabin does too good of a job creating a pocket of air and I find I use AC even with the top down. I will get sun burnt quickly. Also the cowl shake is noticeably worse.

Do you like to take naps, rest, or sleep in your vehicle?
ND basically makes this impossible, you can put the seat forward to slightly recline the seat, but hardly enough to give yourself room enough to relax.

How aware, analytical, or observant are you? Do minor details/imperfections bother you?
Are you a person that notices panel gaps or orange peel, or cost cutting measure without someone pointing them out to you first?


Me complaining:

The nd2 has a rev happy motor. I occasionally have to remind myself that it's only a 4 cylinder. Fast revs and amazingly smooth. Too smooth.. I'll do my best to clarify, i feel that the torque is completely linear and the noise of the engine is consistent from low rpm to redline. Under acceleration id equate it to simply turning up the gain on a speaker with a slight change in tone. As a comparison, the brz has almost a dual personality with how id describe it as a beta version of vtec above 5k rpm

I know the Brz has a motor that sounds like Chewbacca getting off with a bag of marbles, and it feels like you're ringing the motor out for every ounce of it's worth, but at least it has character. It gives you an audible concert with every rev.
I can't get over how my ND sounds like my leaf blower. Deleting my sounds tube and adding exhaust didn't help. Now it's just a louder leaf blower.

The driving characteristics... this will be difficult to elaborate on as it comes down to how hard you like to push your car. The BRZ is simply more fun to hoon and and be a jackass in. Clutch dumps and kicks in a BRZ is rewarding and fun, but hardly ever scary. Its the epitome of "really slow race car". The Miata on the otherhand is more of a happy go lucky toy, and perhaps more fun before the loss of traction. You can break the real wheels lose but it car acts like it didn't want to do it. I complain about the ride below.. which makes it all the more difficult to explain how the miata has a wallow about it. While driving the miata you wont ever forget that you're in a car that's sitting on springs While the BRZ has the feeling that you're sitting between the wheels.
I hope that explanation works well, both cars are very low to the ground, and have that hunkered down effect. Just ride and handle completely different at 6/10s and the limit. Your driving style give different results.

Generally speaking, the Maita is a cheap car, and the reality is that the majority of the costs went into the chassis and suspension. That becomes more and more obvious as you spend time with it. The luxuries are skin deep and i can see why initial impressions are excellent, but over time you'll discover cost and weight cutting measures that went 15% too far. Some people may never notice these things. So be self aware and ask yourself if these "issues" i have with the platform will actually bother you.
The car has considerable flex, and the cowl shake is bad, and its 30% worse with the top down. It feels like the car suspension crashes over cracks; your mileage may vary with the roads in your area. I've determined that this is simply due to the small overall wheel diameter. The center of the hood reverberates above 80 mph, but you may not notice in a light colored vehicle. What would be the side sills are actually plastic covers. You can see the waviness in them of where they are fixed to the frame of the car every foot or so and they creak when pressed. The same can be said for the interior door cards. With just my thumb i can depress the panel near the door handle about 1" in rather easily. Its difficult to truly relax in the car as you cant really put the seats back. The arm rest on the door are purely aesthetic, and once you notice this it becomes rather hilarious to try and use them.

The seats, in the Brz you feel like you're sitting IN the seats and your being hugged by the bolsters, on the Miata it feels like you're sitting ON the bolsters if that makes sense. I initially had the thought "oh these will break in and be nice", but that never happened. I'm not a big guy, if you're rather skinny this may not be an issue.

Piano gloss black, its outside, its inside. It always looks dusty and scratched. I dont like.

Where the ND2 is better:

The shifter is short and snappy but requires less work. Satisfying. Can shift quick at high rpms.

Clutch pedal has about the same light weight of the brz, but provides more feedback and engagement is more apparent. I took the spring out on my brz. That makes it better

The gauge cluster is better.

The obvious, being able to put the hard top down at a whim is nice

Removeable/Relocating cup holders?

The knob in front of the center armrest to control infotainment is nice as you dont have to reach up to touch the infotainment to put finder prints all over it. (you get use to it)

You can turn the infotainment screen completely off and it stays off but functionally, it acts as if its on. I keep my screen off basically all the time. All cars should do this!

The steering wheel is excellent, im not sure id say its better but its good. Feels quality.

Thanks very much for taking the time to share all that. As someone who is deciding between a new twin, an ND2, (and possibly a new Z) I found your comments very helpful. I've been moving away from the Miata anyways recently and this certainly reinforces that direction.

One thing about Miatas (I’ve owned 6, 2 NA8s, 3 NB2s, 1 NC1). They are the kind of car you enjoy driving for fun, but not driving for commuting. What he said about about the ND2 is true, but way worse for the other older ones. They flex a lot, are very twitchy on the highway, no space for you or luggage, etc. In terms of daily-ability, they are just not very good.

Now, for actual driving? They are pretty awesome, I must say. They have a sort of carefree spirit that I feel is mostly unmatched for both track and canyon use. In both situations, the lightness of the cars really does make fast driving feel intuitive. That is until they step out on you lol. I have tracked one of the NA8s and currently drift my NB2, like big third gear entries doing 70. The Miatas are some of the shortest cars you can buy and when they step out, they step out quick and are unforgiving if you lift off or brake. For me, it makes me a little less willing to really push a Miata off the track. It gets a little too hairy sometime in my opinion.

I think the Z is going to be closer to a Mustang/Camaro competitor more than the Supra. This is mostly based on them reusing the same old chassis and added weight for the new engine/turbos.

The Supra is also well over 400HP IRL and the Z is just paper HP as of now.

If they somehow manage to keep the weight close to the Supra and work some magic with the chassis, it would be a winner at that price though.

I would wait on the Z, unless you are up for a new car and a Z guy. I just think it’s going to be so similar to the last one and mainly cosmetic with more power. But I am a handling guy more than a muscle straight line guy. Not to say when I see one in the flesh I won’t like it. Always liked a Z, so not raining on the parade, just realistic.

Agreed. I was trying to say that you can't put the Z in the same class of car as the 86 or a Cayman or even a Supra. All of those cars are attempting to be true sports cars at different budgets.

To me, the Z is more of a GT/Performance Car. More similar to a muscle car than a Supra or 86. The the curb weight and handling characteristics will be closer to the previous gen than what some people are assuming.

I'm also not as excited for it compared to other people after the reveal. The Supra is still going to make more power IRL than the Z with a much better chassis and the muscle cars are still going to have crazy torque. The 370z was also still lagging behind in handling compared to the alpha chassis Camaro and even the Mustang. Without working some serious magic, I still think other cars are a better option whether you prefer power or handling.

Certainly planning to wait for reviews before buying. Drilling down into the details, it seems Nissan is making a number of changes to the chassis and suspension, and the new engine is a peach. I am somewhat hopeful about the car.

I've said it here so many times, Everyday Driver should not really be trusted with reviews of the car. Todd (I think) had one and every time he did a video he'd do a horrible job of showing it off. There was at least one video where he drove it in such a way that of course it looked powerless. It was like a straight incline in 5th gear going like 35mph or something.

:(

Engineering Explained kinda touched on this in his review. While every other journo ragged on the old engine for the torque dip and how the new engine had a much lower torque peak, the original engine still made nearly all of it's peak torque below the dip.

That's why I don't mind the torque dip. When I'm just driving around it's fine, I'm always under it and drives like a completely normal car (if not netter thanks to the aggressive gearing). If I'm just having a no stress recreational drive I like to stick it in the drip because I like the change in sound coming out on the upper end. And if I'm white knuckling it, I'm always above.

Thomas from TH is a track instructor and a skilled driver. Not Randy Pobst level, but not a complete amateur either. If Thomas makes an observation about a car’s handling, it carries more weight than the genuine amateurs.

This isn’t accurate or logical at all. It makes no sense. All these cars are low, 2 door, RWD sportscars. The Supra and Cayman are entirely logical competitors to the Z based on seats, size, weight, and engine. The Z is the cheapest alternative of that trio, and slightly less performance than the Cayman or Supra (but far more performance than the Miata or 86) is to be expected. But of course it is still a sportscar.

Why does everyone think the Z is an abnormally heavy car and ignore the actual weight of the other 6 cylinder sportscars they claim are in another weight class? We don’t know the new Z’s weight, but the outgoing 370Z (1465kg) was actually 40kg lighter than the Supra (1505kg) and about 60kg heavier than a Cayman GTS at 1405kg (to compare the V6 Z to the flat-6 version). The Mustang GT (1770kg) is over 300kg heavier than the 370Z by comparison!

Handling? 370Zs have pulled .99g on the skidpan and turn, brake and handle as a sportscar should. When they first came out they went head to head with the 987 Cayman, and compared very favourably at the time (the Z was more powerful and slighter quicker 0-100, but the Cayman out handled the Z, as you’d expect from a sportscar costing so much more). The journalists comparing them never doubted the Z was a genuine sportscar. The fact it was more powerful than the Mustang V8 of the era is a nice bonus, but it was never a muscle car.

Have you driven a regular Mustang GT (no super expensive GT350) and a 370Z (Sport or Nismo) back to back? I have. The Z is 300kg lighter, you can feel that weight difference instantly, and the Z completely out handles the Mustang. Here in Australia the 370Z, especially the Nismo, consistently puts out better lap times in the hands of track drivers than Mustang GTs (we don’t get the GT350 or other special versions) despite the power deficit. Also worth noting re value, the Nismo Z was significantly cheaper in Australia than the cheapest Mustang GT - I think it was different in the USA where V8 Mustangs are a lot cheaper.

You’re welcome to your opinion, but it really sounds like you are just repeating a bunch of forum hate on the Z, rather than trying to objectively compare it to other cars in the sportscar class. You incorrectly claim it is not a sportscar like the Cayman or Supra because of weight and handling, yet I easily showed you with actual facts that it is only slightly heavier than a GTS Cayman and is actually lighter than a Supra.

Now I don’t know what the new Z will be like. It depends on a range of factors we are uncertain about, such as how much weight the car has gained by moving to the new TT engine, and how the replacement of the old hydraulic steering with electric steering will work (the electric steering in the Q50/60 was not well regarded). But let’s try to be fair and accurate instead of just repeating tired old forum talking points that aren’t based on objective facts.

I'm using the same marketing language as Nissan themselves. The 370z is also way behind all of those cars at limit handling. Given that it's using a chassis that's almost 20 years old now, calling it a modern sports car is being generous. If any RWD coupe is a sports car to you, I don't have a problem with that. I just find it hard to call it a sports car when the prior car fell apart when you pushed it past 8/10ths.

It's because those cars are making much more IRL power with similar weight. The GT is also on a whole other level torque wise even compared with the new Z.

Unfortunately skidpad numbers don't directly translate to enjoyable limit handling. Throw decent tires on any semi-sporty car and you will get the same numbers. I also don't disagree that it was a good car when it came out. It has just been a long time since then and I don't think they've done enough to catch up based on what they have shown us so far.

Agree that it will out handle a base Mustang GT. I don't know many people who are tracking Mustang GT's without PP1 or PP2 options unless they modified the suspension though. Any of those will beat a 370z. Base Camaro SS will do the same along with any of the 1LE Camaro's with smaller engines.

You're welcome to your opinion as well. If you want to call it a sports car go right ahead. I think you are going to be disappointed if you are expecting it to be competitive with those cars though.

I'm sorry if you are offended that I'm not optimistic about a retuned FM chassis that is going to carry even more weight. I would love it if Nissan knocks it out of the park with this car at this price point. I just don't see it happening.

This is the Z’s biggest flaw IMO. It’s why I bought a BRZ over a 370Z

A sports car that gets worse the harder you push it isn't much of a sports car. Maybe the new one will be better but Nissan isn't too trustworthy these days.

Because it was never as light as they said it was. They gave dry weight for the vehicle. And it only got heavier over the years with safety, tech and heat managment. When it came out it was never 1465kg, not driving at least. 1525 kg full of fluids was more realistic; for a base model. End of generation run Nismo models were well over 1568 kg.

Only problem with the Z (paper wise) is the lack of a LSD in its cheap 'sports' offering.

I mean, why?

Is it just to reach a price point? I think that continues to degrade the cars lineage.

The full fat car though, terrific! I'm not a fan of the front end - particularly the headlights and just TOO box grill, massive fan of the rear. Real Z in that.

I thought we already had a topic where folks compare the 2nd gen with the Z's?

This is correct. When C/D weighed their 2009 370z with sport package, it came out to 3360 lbs (1527 kg).

For me it’s the combination these. Also, I’m pretty convinced by some of what Nissan PR people have said that the base will land at 40k. That’s a total base model with no performance stuff. That’s 12k more than the BRZ and you likely need to option it up further to around 15k of difference. I don’t see the value for myself.

8 year car loans!

But yea, for me, when I get a GR86, the trade-in, plus 5K cash should get my 3 year car loan to around $350/mo. or less.

Not too bad, in my opinion, considering my FR-S loan was 6 years.

Moving up to a $40K~45K car would require either stretching the loan to 6 or 7 years with the same money down and more interest, or putting down nearly 15K in cash instead for a 3 year loan. Not to mention all of the extra tax. Also, the 400Z won't fit my mountain bike.

So yea, for me, going to the 400Z is an order of magnitude greater investment that I don't see a worth it. Sure, 400hp is nice, but I barely have room to go full throttle in the FRS with 200hp.

Automatic vs Manual Track Drive from TheTopher

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1IGVNrCKqI

I think it's pretty clear. If you plan on tracking your GR86, MT is the way to go. If your GR86 will never touch a track, you can't go wrong with either the MT or AT based on personal preferences or situations.

Bottom line: the GR86 will be a fun car to drive whether as a racer or a DD.

I can't remember what car it was... I might have seen it on the Smoking Tire... but when you hit the downshift paddle, if it won't give you the gear right then , after you slow down enough it will auto downshift based on you hitting the paddle.

So you eliminate that problem where you hit the paddle and it won't downshift and have to keep hitting it.

Based on this video, I think the automatics could use that feature. It really just doesn't want to downshift, even with there being enough revs.

its just an old gearbox. the only good automatic toyota makes is the 10 speed in the lc500. the ZF8 in the supra and whatever 8 speed is in the is500 or RCF isn't good enough.

would be nice if they could offer a DCT like the volster N. I'd consider it.

The 8 speed in our X1 is pretty good. Its apparently an Aisin (toyota) unit too, which would make sense since the car is FWD based instead of RWD like the other cars equipped with the ZF transmission.

It all comes down to shift logic programming, and i think most manufacturers just tune them for maximum efficiency rather than gearing them for maximum performance and response.

Another Topher Old Manual Vs New Manual on the track.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlMV-Yyld3I

*Both on Primacy tires.

Starting @ 5:10 Topher says Pilot Sport 4 is a high performance all season?


Hopefully he meant that the AS no cost option is the Pilot Sport AS 4 which would be a great improvement over the Bridgestone Turanzas offered on Gen1.

Was smoking tire the guy that did the podcast with some early info?

Yeah I think he said it took him a while to acclimatise in automatic to the track mode rev display. It doesn't want to shift down a gear until your around 4k, which is so close to the edge of the display because of how its constructed (with minimal 0-4k area).

I think once you got a handle on it, you would be totally fine.

I finally realized why the cup holder kept disappearing. Auto has an extra cup holder and manual doesn't.

https://youtu.be/mOz5hgWuQes

A rough summary of his comparison between the old and new.
1. Old has more character.
2. Old has less sharp handling.
3. Old has less grip.
4. And of cause power.

"Character" - that is sooooo subjective.

Yep. I've heard others saying the same. Old car is more playful and fun to drive with same tires. If you don't like it, then you can put stickier tires.

Lots of times better equals less character. Antique fire engines have character as do steam tractors. There are good reasons for both being obsolete

NA first drive days for GR86 first week of August
 

Lol. No piped in engine noise or silly shift beeps (about the 2020)

Wrong and wrong.

Technically he's not fully wrong per se ... its not "piped through the speakers". Its just a sound tube lol but I get your point.

yeah isnt the beeps an on/off toggle?

and I'll take piped in real noise over fake synthetic video game noise anyday.
Plus i also like the sound of the FA20 over the FA24 at least from the vids.

No, it’s just piped through a literal pipe!:bonk:

Eh. I don’t really care either way because it’ll 99% sure get turned off on mine anyway.

Its not a video game. Not saying you like it, but video games do not compare.

Its the actual engine harmonics, live and all consistent with the real engine behaviour and stress from all of the dynamic real world shit going on.

Sure you might not like the pitch they have chose to translate the engine sound but as far as authenticity of you hearing what is going on inside that engine its perfect.