Question about first gear possible problem
 

Solved: So it turns out it was one problem leading to a few seemingly unrelated symptoms. Basically the motor mounts are just showing signs of minor wear but that minor wear and tear was enough for the engine to rock a little which was causing the acceleration to feel a little funny, and also was causing one of the exhaust pipes to bang and rub against the sub frame which is why it was making the banging and grinding sound. As for why it only happened on hills, my best guess is because the engine is angled back on a hill, it is sorta falling with the worn mounts causing the pipe to more easily press against the frame.

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I probably am beating a dead horse at this point but I dont want to clutter my other thread with this question now that the problem in question on that thread is now pretty much resolved.

I am having an interesting (Problem I suppose?) with first gear. I changed my transmission fluid to Motul 300 and so far it has been the best thing I have ever done to the car besides the clutch pedal adjustment. Before someone says it was the adjustment that caused this, and you may be right, let me give context, I adjusted the clutch pedal to be exactly in line with the break pedal. I used a straight edge to insure it is in the same spot and initial tests showed no grinding. I have between 2-4cm of dead space before engagement so more than I would like still but more than enough not to be grinding I would think. I want to add that I will try dialing it back a bit more to see if that solves the problem, but given the nature of when the problem occurs I am not convinced its related.

When cold, the first and second gear are actually very smooth. Once warmed up, for probably abour 5 minutes I hit this patch of time where first gear on a slight upward incline will grind just a little even with the clutch fully up. It never happens on flat ground and never happens on down hills. Only from a complete stop on an up hill incline. RPMs are between 1000 and 1500. I figured maybe I was just getting sloppy and maybe not revving enough but higher RPMs and faster clutch draw just seem to mean faster and louder. I am not entirely sure what could be causing this. I am not getting any whirling sounds. Just a very clunky coarse sounding yet also sorta subtle grind. If you didn't drive manual you would probably think its normal. What is particularly weird, to me, like I said before, is, it happens for about a 5-10 minute patch of time, but then it goes back to working normally. I expected some possible changes and strange sounds after my fluid change so I am not immediately concerned about this but also, it seems a bit odd. The next thing is, yeah, it could be the peddle adjust ment but it is weird to me that it only happens when warm, for a short period of time, and only on an incline, then all goes back to its nice beautiful well lubricated ways.

Before I rush to concern I just want to get your thoughts. I also have not yet added the whiteline bushing inserts on the rear dif. This seems like too weird of an issue on too mundane of a task for that to really make a huge difference, but, thoughts? Could this be a rear dif thing where maybe that would help? Its not a clinking noise or clicking noise so I am not convinced it is the rear dif either and I feel it in the clutch pedal but I might be way off on my assessment.

Here is a video so you can see some of whats going on. In the first couple clips youll notice at a stand still nothing really seems to be wrong. Once we get to the last clip you can hear the problem during acceleration.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1MYw...ew?usp=sharing

Thank you for your input

Just to be clear, the grind is when you are taking off not when putting the car in gear?

Correct. not when I’m putting the car I. Gear. It is from about halfway up the pedal until it’s fully released and only on an uphill incline after about 30 minutes of driving and only for about 5-10 minutes and then stops and only in first from a complete stand still. if I am already rolling it’s fine.

A clunk from the rear end isn't unusual with these cars taking off but a grind is. Can you pinpoint if its coming from the front, back or gearbox area?

I can’t say for sure. It’s a somewhat unusual sound. It almost sounds like tire rub on a metal fender mixed with scraping over a speed bump. It’s not quite as loud as loud or terrifying sounding as a normal grind which is almost more terrifying. You feel a good firm rattle in the clutch pedal that I would almost compare to sliding your foot over 40 grit sandpaper if that makes sense, which is why I’m wondering if it is related to the pedal adjustment, but I have seen people go lower than I did without problems so now I’m not so sure. I am parallel with the brake pedal but I have seen people go a full 5mm lower than the brake pedal

I'd be surprised if it was related to the pedal adjustment. Could be throw out bearing issue, could be a lack of lube on the fork pivot or the thing the bearing slides on could be a worn out friction disc. When the car isn't running and you push the clutch in and out is it smooth and quiet?

Very smooth very quiet. Also, when the car is on but in neutral I don’t have any whirling noises or whistling noises like I would imagine hearing if it was the TOB. At a stand still all seems normal for lack of a better term. I’ll upload a video tomorrow if I can recreate the issue. I’m not 100% sure it’s throw out bearing because I know a lot of people complain about that as the clutch goes in also but it’s fine going in, and in certain RPM sweet spots it’s not so bad. The friction disk wouldn’t surprise me but at the same time, if it’s a bearing or Vice versa I might as wel do all of it and hit every bird with the same stone. Idk that that is a project I want to take on now that I no longer have a garage space to work. Not the type of job you typically take on in a parking lot. If I buy a new clutch kit it will have a TOB and I can probably get a loca shop to take it on for less than $500 in labor if I bring the parts. With any luck this won’t be that dire but the sound isn’t convincing.

I am slightly hoping this isn't transmission related at all and is maybe suspension related. I just listned to a video of a wheel bearing problem and that actually sounds somewhat similar. Its almost a deep ratcheting sound that sorta starts and stops until the clutch is off and sometimes a little after. The part I dont hear is a humming or growl. I would think with a sound this bad maybe it would be growling at me but I don't hear it. A friend of mine who was in the car with me once when it happened said he heard it from the wheel and thought it was scraping. Is it possible that this only happens when accelerating from a stop on a hill?

Have you replaced any suspension bushes with urethane?

I havent touched it yet. Car is only a few months in my hands now. Car drove fine on the test drive and had no outstanding mechanical issues that could be identified at the time. I just read someone else say their transmission mount was lose and was rattling between 0-5mph which is exactly where I am at. Another person had what they described exactly as me and they said motor mounts. Another said suspension from pot hole (I avoid them like the plague but who knows what the last owner did. It seems fine outside of 0-5mph). I know white line makes the suspension bushings and I was recommended to do those and the rear dif and replace the transmission mount as more of a driving experience enhancement.

I don't know what this would sound like but I see a lot of other people saying break pads which I havn't yet and REALLY need to do. I am curious if that could be it. I may do that this weekend just to get it out of the way anyway and with any luck maybe thats it but I am genuinely not convinced.

This is the exact sound but a little deepr and only when the car is moving and between 0 and 5 mph

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xo4sYWqN4io

He thought it was the belt tensioner and my tensioner pully does rattle a lot. I will get video of all my stuff tomorrow.

Urethane bushes can make a squeaky groaning sound if not lubed correctly.

If its a rattle it could be all sorts of things. I think you may need to get a recording of the sound or take it to someone to check.

Ill do both. Ill get a few good recording tomorrow if I can replicate the problem. One of the mechanics I go to only works on BMWs but makes an exception for fluids and basic servicing. I may ask them to take a look because I know they arent going to BS me into a $1200 repair I don't need because they wouldn't do it anyway.

This thread also covers the issue almost to a T. I havent tried accellorating from a stop in second while turning the wheel yet though. Ill try everything tomorrow and get video of all of it. https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116718

I just learned that the mounts on the downpipe on the FRS and BRZ and 86 apparently historically get lose and I just listened to it and Im like..... oooooohhhhhhhh.... when I get my car up to do brakes ill take a look at that too. Might just need to tighten something.

Here is a few videos I composited together so you can see and listen to everything. In the last clip you will hear it during accelloration. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1MYw...ew?usp=sharing

Got under the car today. Everything is on there nice and good. Nothing loose. I tried hard take offs and I was able to get donuts and hard take offs no problem. First time driving the car hard. No crunching or slipping. I didn’t have problems til I go to hills again and I think it is clutch related. Under 2500rpm I was straight slipping or almost stalling on a hill and when it was slipping that’s when you hear that noise. If I go over 3000 rpm on a hill then the noise didn’t happen but clutch did slip a LOT. Then back on flat ground we are all good again right back to hard take offs and donuts slip free. This is getting more and more confusing. I want to add to this. Yes user error could play a roll, but not to this degree. Its weird. The noises I am hearing don't sound (to me) like the sort of thing that just easing off the clutch a little fast or slow would cause, and more over, why am I so affected by a few degrees incline?

Have you inspected for any transmission fluid leaks? Does your clutch feel any softer on engagement?

I didn't see any leaks while I was down there and it doesnt feel softer, but then again I don't have a great reference of what it normally feels like on a BRZ. I think you had commented on my original thread where I was commenting on it acting up and after the fluid change it was a night and day improvement. I haven't noticed any leaking and they didn't say they saw anything down there. I noticed this a little bit and someone else over on the thread had told me they think this is from the fluid change, before I got a video with audio of it, and maybe it is, but I don't know that I am 100% convinced yet. It sounds just a little strange to me. I think this may be unrelated to the issues I was targeting with the fluid change.

I have since had 2 different friends in the car with me hear it from different places in the same region of the vihicle. One thought it was tire rub at first except I was going straight, then once I showed him it wasn't, he was like, yeah thats not good, but the thought it was coming from the wheel area. Another friend said its definitely in front towards the engine some where but hes not sure where and thought it was more towards the center of the vihicle than the sides, but he said it didnt sound like it was coming from the transmission, and I am inclined to agree that I don't believe its tha transmission given that its hapening well after getting in gear and getting moving.

I am supposed to get it looked at on tuesday so hopefully they will be able to replicate the problem and give me a decent idea of what they think it is. My suspissions are narrowed down to: The clutch is slipping a little and its causing the bearings to knock around; or something suspension related; or possible the tensioner. Hopefully I will find out tuesday but I also hope maybe one of you all will have an idea to help narrow this down more. The more cross-referencing I can do the better.

Yeah unfortunately this is not something I am an expert at, at least I never experienced or heard of anyone with the type of problem you're having in particular. So hopefully others can chime in with some thoughts. The way you described it with the clutch slip on the hills makes it seem like it MUST be trans related. I am just trying to understand why it would feel or act up that way on hills but not in other conditions. I would still like to think it has to be some part in there acting up, and that somehow the condition of an incline really pronounces it, but I from everything I've looked up, I'm not familiar with this.

Yeah its really strange. I don't know that it is the hill as much as the ratio of gas to clutch on the hill. In spite of what I said in the video, I went ahead and did hard take offs and donuts and not a single sound or feeling out of place but that was all on flat ground. On hills, its weird. Maybe I am gassing too much and not letting up on the clutch enough but when I let up faster I start to stall. If I gas less and let up slower the prius next to me can take off faster. It is a little disturbing. I don't have this problem with the civic or 350 but this car also drives a LOT different than both of them in my opinion. This is the first time in many years I have been left scratching my head on more than one occasion in a manual. On tuesday my mechanic will look at the car and they don't actually work on subarus so I like them. They will tell me whats wrong and then not fix it which makes me happy because I know they have no reason to bull shit me about some expensive repair I don't need. Hopefully they have some insight.

I should add that when they drained the fluids they said they found no metal shavings. Besides the fluid showing its age a bit they found no cause for alarm from the fluids alone, so that is a point for the transmission, but not definitive and also says nothing about the clutch.

I just came to a huge realization. I don't think the clutch pedal adjustment is causing it, but I do think it has to do with it. In a way. So, I didn't have the problem all that noticeably until I adjusted my clutch pedal, but I didn't go anywhere near as far as I have seen some people go. I think the problem is the clutch, but I think it's not fully disengaging. Here's why I think that. It wasnt bad when it was just stupid long travel, but now that the travel is reduced even a little it is having a problem, and when I adjust it even a milimeter more, I have the problem all the time. I am going to double check and just be sure I dont have any leaks in the master or slave, but I am now very curious if the clutch is going bad and sticking a little, or if it is a fluid problem.

Makes sense, shouldn't be any reason for shavings, at least you would hope not, otherwise you've got much bigger problems lol. It's definitely not you, as with everything you've described, you know what you're doing more or less on a manual. This car should be plenty forgiving too, I have had no issues whatsoever that you describe on hills. Ratio plays a role here, but as I said, it's pretty forgiving and you should not have any problems.

Sounds like you might be onto something with the clutch engagement thoughts. Very odd though that you would get such a loud, metal-like, crunching noise with a clutch problem. Or maybe I'm just not familiar enough with the potential sounds that could come out of that. @Ultramaroon I forget if you're the one with some expertise on this subject and would be able to share any thoughts. If not, my apologies for thy summoning.

Yes @Ultramaroon was the one who suggested my initial description as being from the fluid change but it has since evolved so maybe he can way in. I also spoke to him when I did the adjustment. I linked to a video where you can hear it in my first post and somewhere near the end of the first page.

The part that is putting me off is, I find so many people having the exact same sound but nothing that I am experiencing is ticking every box. Could be suspension related but I am not having any other related symptoms. could be axle related but no clicking. Could be exhaust related but no loose bolts. Could be scraping but nothing is misaligned behind the brakes. Could be motor mounts... havent actually looked into that one yet... Found someone with a similar issue on another car and it ended up being the fuel pump and what they were hearing was coming from the engine. Could be a warn-out belt and what I am hearing is the tensioner but again, only on hills? Could be transmission but it only happens on hils and turns but although I can, I struggle to simulate it on flat ground. When it does happen on flat ground it is way less of an issue. No apparent leaks. I noticed SOME issue before my adjustment but nothing serious and all other problems I thought I was having was easily remedied with the fluid change. This is a head scratcher.

My thoughts about the clutch sticking is, if its getting stuck it jerks the car and as it jerks the car it could be something in the engine or momentarily causing something to be misaligned with the shaft. But that B is on there pretty good so who knows. At this point I am just trying to narrow down possibilities and try to give the mechanic an idea of my (cough) our thoughts given that there is so much to look at and so much it could be. It's not like I am trying to diagnose why the car makes a weird noise when I trun the wheel a certain way.

Unlikely suspension related, because that wouldn't explain any clutch slipping. Definitely shouldn't be exhaust related, as that is in a totally different department, unless there's just some additional unrelated sounds happening from that at the same time. Axle is a possibility. Scraping is unprobeable due to first two reasons. I may have missed you mention that you experience it on turns before... two things - could be differential or bad CV joint. CV joint issues should cause other symptoms that you don't seem to experience, so I'd lean more toward a differential problem?

Someone did make that suggestion on another forum about early stages of the CV going bad. No issues on turns. At least none that I notice. Doesn't seem to make all that much of a difference but adjusting the clutch to have shorter travel does. which brings me back to the clutch because the transmission wasn't having problems getting into gear at all and wasn't grinding except during the same type of accelleration but adjusting it lower and it was having the problem all the time instead of just on hills... but I may be imagining that because I was pushing the car a bit harder in stages during the adjustment to try to see where the limits of the adjustment were.

I am not too familiar with symptoms of clutch adjustment as I have never bothered doing so, but here's a quick quote I just pulled off some website.

"For the clutch to work efficiently, the right amount of play in the linkage between the clutch pedal and clutch fork (or release arm) is necessary. If not enough free play exists, a slipping clutch will result."

I know you said you started to play around with it a bit to see how it behaves, have you made the attempt to adjust it back to stock?

Doing it first thing in the morning. The thing I find strange is there are people who go WAYYY farther than me, but I am also curious if my clutch isn't stock. I put the pedal parallel to the brake pedal. I have seen people successfully go a full few mm lower problem-free, or at least they claim. There was definitely some work done on the car that wasn't factory that didn't show up on the carfax so if they put a different clutch in then maybe I have less room to play with it than normal but it is super soft so I doubt its aftermarket if they did. Tomorrow morning it will go back to its OG 5 foot travel and well see. Probnably should have lead with that but all in all it had seemed to be resolved and previously you werent the first person to say it was low on the list of likelyhood so I have been slowballing bringing it back to stock

There is definitely a large history of people doing this with no issues. But bringing it back is certainly a good starting point to see what results you arrive at.

The more I am reading the fork travel specs the more I am thinking it may ACTUALLY be the adjustment. I don't entirely know why other people are able to adjust it so much more than I am, but I have a sneaking suspission this is it. I will check back first thing in the AM eastern time once I deal with it and let you all know how it goes after I give it a test drive. Before the great and wonderful @Ultramaroon shows up I should add that I have gone through the clutch slipping check list, second gear at a stop, third to 4th rolling, all that jazz, and nothing stands out to me.... except when I am on a hill, and only from a full stop... so I am hoping that if it is (and it probably is) the clutch adjustment, that this should clear right up... I hope... and that nothing took TOO too much of a beating if this was the cause.

Haha.... I'm working but had some downtime. I'll come back and spend some quality time here. Will update ASAP.

Ok, I come bearing results (haha... bearing... cuz I might have a shot TOB... ok thats not funny... and yes I amuse myself). Just not sure if they are good results or not.

I adjusted the clutch back to stock. Erm.... In some ways it feels better but I think it may be because I was driving more carefully all around trying to adjust myself to the new clutch pedal travel (I am not a fan). It is certainly hard-er to replicate the problem on flat ground. I tried and it grabbed pretty quick. On hills it almost seems worse but that may be because I am still getting used to lifting my leg 20 miles in the air to let off the clutch.

I really cant tell. At first I got a false sense of hope because right after the adjustment I certainly believed it felt a lot better, but then on the hill, it was the same deal.

Results reported as of 10:16AM

Listened carefully. All I heard out of the ordinary are the clunks at the one-minute mark. These can be damn hard to find, and could be one of any number of things loose, torn, worn...

You're doing a hill start so right away we know that you have to apply more torque than needed on a flat. That's the key. It's not the clutch, transmission or anything potentially tragic. Have to think about what flexes more than normal under torque.

If it doesn't handle wonky, we can probably rule out suspension bushings, but not entirely.

Diff mount? Driveshaft carrier mount?

If you have a nice flat place to tinker, you can park it in first and from the outside, rock the car back and forth to see if you can replicate the sound. Pop the hood and do it from the strut braces so you can see the engine rock. You will hear noise coming from normal lash so be careful not to let that trick you. It may not give us anything.

Dzmitry was right to summon you and we thank you for your presence. Haha. But in all seriousness I will take a look later today or tomorrow. You give me hope because (and I say this knowing full well that you CAN get more miles out of a clutch) I am hoping to change the clutch in 20-40k just to restore a like new feel and get some preventative maintainance done in there while I am at it, but I am really not trying to redo a tranny or clutch right now if I can help it. Right now I am focusing on driver experience over mechanical and I must say, the driving experience is a little nervrakcing with that sound every time I am on a hill LOL.

I will rock the car later if I can. Gonna be busy tomorrow. If I notice anything I will attempt to get audio of it but one way or the other I will report back.

Ok got some audio. It IS creeking and is metallic like the sound in the initial recording. Rear drivers side wheel well. I don’t hear it on the right or front. Idk if this is THE sound but it’s A sound that could be related IMO. https://drive.google.com/file/d/15K-...w?usp=drivesdk (around the 3 second mark)

IF, and I recognize this is an if, it is the culprit, it MAY explain why it is more frequent on hills. Being that it is on an upwards incline, the car has more potential energy pulling it backwards so the car would theoretically push down more on the rear of the car, putting more strain on whatever is causing that, sound. Additionally that explains why its harder on a down hill to recreate and harder on flat because in both instances the car isn't trying to roll backwards as I try to force it forwards. I am not entirely sure why me and several others heard it from the front but if what is making that sound is connected to something that travels up the length of the car then it could be causing the sound to appear somewhere else.

Ok, got the car to the shop. They were confused as all hell and told me to come back on thursday. They said its 100% not the transmission or clutch but it is grabbing high and to expect to replace the clutch in about 15-30k miles. He said if I always drive the way we drove today then probably mid 20k more. So that takes at least some user error out of the equation. He just said my driving is fine and isn't the issue here so that makes me happy at least. He was able to replicate it and I was able to replicate it for him. He said it is definitely coming from the front passenger side and he doesnt believe the sound from the rear wheel well is really indicative of anything and doesnt feel its related to this problem. He said it doesnt sound suspension or brake related. He then proceeded to say he has never heard anything like this before based on the conditions needed to replicate it and it sounds like something rubbing but he is not really sure what would be making the noise from where he is hearing and feeling it. All that said. Hopefully I know more thursday.

Overpipe heat shield? Creaks and groans can be a real PITA.

Indeed, as Ultramaroon said, sounds like these can be so time consuming and hard to pinpoint. If you have aftermarket parts up front of any kind, I would check all of them to make sure nothing is loose and clearances are all satisfactory. Then start checking all exhaust components, heat shields, metal trays and supports. I still can't wrap my head around the slippage of clutch you experience on hills... Perhaps a separate problem from this noise?

He said he felt it too and he basically just said its just a result of 3 previous owners. He said its grabbing a bit high for him and thats probably what I am feeling since its not as grabby as a new clutch but he said it should make it another 20-30 fine with tame driving so I think we are good. I wanna do it as preventative as soon as I can. Just happy the unanimous consensus is that its not urgent. Not much up front changed but I did check all of my work and I got under the car and from what I could get to with the car on ramps I couldnt see anything wrang and everything seemed tight but maybe they will catch whats wrong with the luxury of a lift.

Yeah. I am looking forward to what they say on thursday. A bit like my message I just posted to Dzmitry, when I got under there it all seemed tightened down, possibly harder than spec but I didnt check, but either way, it's a little hard to be certain with the car just on ramps. Not the most accessible position to check things. Hopefully, with the luxury of a lift, they will be able to get a better idea than I could on my back.

Youd be proud. Lol. Dude goes, we dont really work on subarus but dont go after market on the clutch and if you do get a street clutch. Hes like, the stock clutch in this car is perfectly good 9 times out of 10. An after market one is just one headache after the next in this car. Lol. I remember you saying before not to do an after-market clutch and just focus on the slave cylinder.

Hopefully! I am surprised they are ruling out suspension as well, though they could very well be correct. I am simply thinking, that creak was quite LOUD in a sense. A little too loud to be something as simple as a heatshield rub or any basic part. I would think it would more likely be some old rusty suspension or driveline component that takes a good bit of stress during initial acceleration from a stop.

EDIT: They didn't determine if it was a front SIDE or not, did they?
2nd EDIT: On second thought, listening to it again, I guess it's not TOO loud. But still has a solid grind sound to it.

He said its 100% front passenger side. He said he physically feels it right under the floor boards but hes not sure whats ther that would make the sound or feeling hes feeling or hearing. He in a lot more and at the same time not so many words implied that unless toyoburu got really creative hes not sure what part of the suspension would make the combination of sound and feeling hes getting from it. Hes like, That’s not from suspension… I mean, it could be but thats not what I am getting from it in the handling and in the floor boards.