Not sure I'd make a medical decision based on third or fourth hand knowledge that could very well be skewed by the person's own individual beliefs or biases.

If you are advising you friend to get the shot based on real evidence, I would say you are definitely smarter or more qualified than at least the end of his chain of evidence.

Right, but he is going around and telling people this and using a respiratory clinic as his source. Who knows how many people she has told.

I decided long time ago I am getting the vax, I just don't go around telling people why they should or shouldn't unless I hear them say something that is wildly untrue. I will correct that, with ancillary opinions I just move along with my life.

Yea, I'm pretty much the same. If you want to have a debate with me, I'm happy to do that, but it's an individual decision, as are most things.

As I tell folks, just don't ask me for my opinion if you don't really want it, because it's the one thing I'm a true expert on and I will give it to you. Whether you agree or not is up to you, because you have the right to be wrong.

Kinda like forgiving someone for the money you owe them

Dadhawk, your blurb on opinions is a lot more eloquent than mine, which I picked up from an airforce captain I used to chum with. Something along the line of opinions are like a-holes, everybody has one, and they all stink.

This x100. I imagine the original purpose of the vaxi-nation thread was to talk about info, studies, trials, experiences, etc. Got a little skewed but I assume we are old grown ups here.
I see very little purpose for this thread because it can easily be summed up to "Non ya business" on why a person hasn't gotten their vaccine. Why ask for someone's reason when they really don't have to give it to you. Then getting upset, trying to lecture, or tell why they are wrong, creates a toxic environment.

I have ZERO, absolutely ZERO issues with anyone here, I love the purpose of the forum, the off topic lunge, everything, but out of all the threads to should probably be shut down, this one should be shut down the most. I'm a firm believer that perception is reality, no matter on what side of the vax spectrum you are. I can respect someone's decision on getting or not getting the vax, is their choice, I can't make it for them. It may be frustrating for some but is the reality of it.

Maybe you should stop making incorrect and insulting assumptions about other people. Go back and read my initial post in this thread...

https://www.ft86club.com/forums/show...7&postcount=24

Pay close attention to what I said in items #2 and #3, as well as the paragraph immediately following item #5. Let me know if you have any difficulty understanding the prose I used.

Again, for the third (and continually and evidently futile) time, your assertion that those who don't agree with you also, therefore, don't care about others, deaths, suffering, etc, is just incredibly and disgustingly closeminded, arrogant, condescending, and insulting. Debate your points, cite statistics, give rationale for your opinions... fine. No problems with that. Insult and mischaracterize those who can do the same thing to explain THEIR viewpoints that differ from yours? Yes, that's a VERY big problem.

My wife and I were on vacation on a small island in Mexico about four years ago, having a wonderful time on a beach. A friendly person overhead us talking long enough to hear we weren't European or Mexican, and he asked us where we were from. We mentioned that we lived in upstate NY, US, and he replied that he was from Ontario. He then, immediately, launched into a diatribe about how awful our newly elected president was, how much better Canada was, and how sorry he was for us. I politely mentioned a couple positive takes on our nation and our newly elected president, and he proceeded for the next hour to follow us up and down the beach... LITERALLY... haranguing me for my opinions. I tried to have a discussion, but couldn't.. he just wouldn't stop or listen. Then, I said, "Look, we're on vacation, and I don't enjoy political discussions even when I'm not. Please leave us alone, and enjoy your day." He still didn't. We had to leave the beach to get away from him.

He was the worst example, but we had similar experiences throughout that week... and all from Canadians. DO NOT MISUNDERSTAND ME. I lived four miles from the Canadian border for many years. I love Canada. I've been camping and fishing in midwest Quebec since the early 1970s, far north of Maniwaki. I've spent many, MANY wonderful weekends in Kingston, Ottawa, Montreal. Spent our honeymoon on PEI, and have been there many times. Gaspe peninsula, Cabot Trail, Nova Scotia... just amazing places. Getting to the wilds of British Columbia, and Vancouver are on my bucket list. Like every other place on earth, most of the people are wonderful and there's a few idiots. Why there was such a concentration of the obnoxious, opinionated know-it-alls on the Mexican island that week baffles me, but it was extremely unfortunate.

This thread brings back those awful memories.

I had the same thing happen to me in Cancun 5 years ago lol. Except it happened at the pool at our resort while I was at the poolside bar :bonk:

I'm sorry to hear that.. but I guess it's nice to know I wasn't alone in the experience. Heck, could have been the same Canadian dude... we were on Isla Mujeres, just off the coast of where you were! Misery loves company, they say! :)

I've spent a ton of time in hospitals and doctors offices the past month. I have a 2 month old who was diagnosed with congenital cataracts (bilateral) and went into surgery a few weeks ago. The week before surgery he got sick and was having difficulties breathing. His pediatrician sent us to the ER. That same week I had a vasectomy. Then a few days later my 3 year old put some air soft pellets in his ears and his pediatrician sent us to the ER. What I found interesting with all this time in the ER and at doctor's offices is how little talk there was about COVID. When my son was in the ER for respiratory issues they never once suggested it was COVID (and yes he had a fever). No COVID tests or anything. My brother in law is a doctor who is a big provaxer who did reluctantly take the Moderna vax but no one else in his family has taken it. My next door neighbor is also a nurse who hasn't taken it and doesn't plan on it. She said most of the nurses at her hospital haven't and don't plan on it.

The survival rate of the flu is about the same as COVID. Why don't we get guilted and pressured about the flu shot? "you may survive the flu but don't you care about everyone else". Why aren't there threads on freaking car forums titled "Why didn't you take your flu shot yet?". Why are people still so terrified with all we know about it now? Why are there people wearing masks in the car as they text while driving while also tailgating?

Posted in the other thread...
https://asm.org/ASM/media/Article-Im...d.png?ext=.png

Why do people fail to acknowledge a massive spike in hospitalization, mortality and longterm illness resulting from Covid19? Rather, they choose to castigate me for urging everyone to get vaccinated. I'm trying to HELP alleviate the problem, not perpetuate it. And why does the flu need to come into this? Has it caused any uptick in mortality recently?
Almost as if I am telling people to jump off a cliff.

I'm not trying to insult people. But on the other hand I have limited tolerance for those who seem oblivious.

Nobody is forcing anybody, it is a personal choice. I am pro vax and have all the intellectual material available to back it up.

You?

Hey, why don't you add some projection in there while you're at it. After all, I am a Canadian too, right?

@Spuds beat me to the punch. @ermax your idea of about the same and mine are a good bit different.

If that worked then I would be a sheep according to @FR-S2GT86, but sheep don't eat meat, soooo....? This is the Sheep Paradox.

https://www.memecreator.org/static/i...es/1814482.jpg

If irace2.0 became a meat eater:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oH_KUN_rZU

As others have pointed out, this is inaccurate. It isn't even close. The seasonal flu kills mostly 80+ year olds, and the number of confirmed deaths is typically 15k/year with an estimate of true deaths around 35k/year, and that number is with no lockdowns and no masks, which means COVID deaths would be even higher. With that said, while we don't have a very high vaccination rate for the flu, most of the elderly get the flu shot, so the true death toll might be even higher. But here is the thing, the true death toll from COVID if we hadn't worn masks or done lockdowns or vaccinated people would have also been far higher, so we only have the current data to go off.

If we could eliminate all cancer or all heart disease with masks and social distancing, let's be honest, people wouldn't do it. We have had over 600k deaths from COVID, and this is a temporary problem and people are freaking out, so if masks meant the difference between no childhood cancer or your dad dying at 52 of a LAD, or anything else that pulls on your heart strings, but it meant wearing a mask and social distancing forever, people wouldn't do it, so why wear masks and social distance for COVID? Because 600k deaths is just a small amount of deaths relative to what COVID was capable of doing, and it is ludicrous to sacrifice so many lives for a year or two of inconvenience. I would wear masks indefinitely in social situations if it meant no cancer--just saying.

https://www.heart.org/-/media/data-i...B141EA4F4052ED

Here is all cause mortality, which I have posted ad nauseam, but it is worth a revisit I guess. As you can see, the 2018 flu season was bad, which is why you see it cross the standard deviation line, but for most winters, there is an extra 5k deaths per week at the peak compared to the low of the summer. For 2018, at the peak of the bad flu season, there was an extra 8k deaths beyond the typical rise in deaths. It is also worth noting that the flu season is a distinct season that comes and goes, but that is not the case for COVID

For COVID, there was an extra 27k deaths beyond what is normal during the peak of the last spike. Given a normal year, we would have had around 59,378, but instead we had 86,925--a difference of 27,547 excess deaths that week. That is a 46% increase in deaths. Said another way, 32% of all deaths from all causes came from COVID. If we were to compress the excess deaths into one giant bell curve then the excess deaths would equate to an extra 80k+ deaths during the peak week. Anyways, the chart speaks from itself, but I'm just trying to give some relative context.

Mad Sheep disease. Don't feed sheep to sheep, and I won't come biting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgB9sg5dy8w

I read the post you linked to in your message. One thing that strikes me is your level of confidence that you can easily avoid covid infection and resulting transmission. I read your regimen and it seems very similar to what the CDC recommended. Indeed, very similar to mine. That is commendable. That said, many people I know have been convinced they were doing the same things. A couple of them are dead now.

The conclusion you draw from that point (#2) is that the probability of your passing the infection along is exceedingly low.

Perhaps our perspectives, or the realities in which we live, are incompatible. You believe you can easily avoid infection and acting as a disease vector. From my observations of the world I live in, the virus is quite easy to contract and spread, despite taking precautions. The virus is, as is life in general, a study in applied probability. Fortune plays a crucial role. And generalizing from your personal experience or from mine is simply fallacious.

As you noted people can contract Covid 19 and become less ill than someone who receives the vaccine. And as we all know, many people have contracted the disease and been completely asymptomatic. The difference between the person who contracted the virus with few to no symptoms and your vaccine experience is that person could have died from the disease or could have infected others who similarly could have died. As has been amply documented, the virus is orders of magnitude more deadly than the flu.

Despite your unfortunate side effects, the probability of your becoming acutely ill from the vaccine is virtually non-existent and the probability of your passing it along as a result is effectively zero.

I am glad you got vaccinated, even if you did so under duress. Vaxed is vaxed is, for now, removed from the pool of potential vectors. That you would have ventured unvaccinated into the company of others of unknown vaccination status, donning a mask only if requested disappoints me. If it seems like I am judging you, I guess I am. My apologies - to an extent. I am sure you are convinced that you do care about others. However, there are times and situations where our actions say more about our character than words can convey. For me, this is one of those times.

He was so heavy, so heavy…

https://youtu.be/OLBotH5Bki8

https://www.onegreenplanet.org/news/...lls-to-police/

^^One of my all time favourite movies.

Dinner was beef back ribs done in an air fryer.

You are a cruel man. And I think you know it.

But, the cream gravy is missing from th' taters.

I have a packet of gravy mix but it seemed wasteful just for me.

I always thought it said, "pu*** cow **ss* cow ****y cow!"

Did you also stay at a Holiday Inn Express? I'm sorry to hear that your kids have gone through so much trouble recently. My balls ache for thee.
However, the attitudes of the few people you spoke with at a hospital have nothing to do with science. As I read your post, I thought to myself, "Where the hell is this guy?" I was not surprised to find out you are in Florida.

Nurses and doctors are not experts on epidemics. That's a field called epidemiology. https://www.cdc.gov/csels/dsepd/ss19.../section1.html
My dentist is an antivaxxer. I love her, and she is a fantastic dentist, but that doesn't make her wise in all things medical.

Your last line is a real doozy. It's just completely false. The COVID death rate is in the region of 1.5-2%. It can go higher when hospitals are overflowing, as it has recently in parts of India.

The flu death rate is a fraction of this. https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden...-estimates.htm
The flue the year before COVID... Going with means of the ranges offered, 47 million cases. 43k deaths. .09% death rate. That means COVID is 16 to 22 times deadlier than the flu.

Except that the flu runs around unchecked and hits about as many Americans as COVID did when massive efforts were made to avoid the disease. Meanwhile, all the efforts to combat COVID have caused a 90% or so decrease in flu cases. That implies, tough not with certainty. Imagine if, with no protections, COVID were 10 times bigger. 10 times more deaths. That's 6 million dead Americans. The truth is, though, that deaths could have been far worse since hospitals could have been completely overrun.

The math is not on your side, Florida man.

I can say as a registered nurse in New York, most of the nurses and health care providers I know have been vaccinated. Not sure how much faith I would put into the "I know a son of a cousin of a doctor and he isn't vaccinated" claims. Maybe more in New York got vaccinated due to how hard we got hit early on?

I'm sure by this point, political beliefs play a part in that. Hard evidence or not.
(not trying to get into politics too much).

It's unfortunate that politics have made their way into healthcare, and I mean that for both sides. Whenever data doesn't support the narrative they're trying to push all of a sudden science gets tossed in with the opposing political party.

Covid has been played heavily by both sides, with the left often making it out to be far more deadly than it is (it's no MERS or SARS) and the right making it out to be a simple cold (it's far more deadly than flu). As usual, the answer is somewhere in the middle.

It's an interesting psychology for sure

Politics exists everywhere. It's like the Schwartz. Whining about it doesn't change things.

While I'm sure some people somewhere have played up the deadliness of COVID, I haven't seen it. You spread your ignorance. COVID-19 is a form of SARS.
https://www.niaid.nih.gov/diseases-conditions/covid-19
COVID-19 is MASSIVELY deadlier than SARS and MERS combined. SARS killed like 800 people or so. https://www.cdc.gov/dotw/sars/index.html
MERS killed far fewer from what I gather.
But COVID 19? That shit is nasty. It has this long incubation period where it spreads rapidly. Then it kills 1.5-2% of people, but 2-3 weeks later. It's a great spreader. It fits right into the stupidity blind spot of danger sensing that many people possess. Come on, man. Think! AT LEAST 600,000 DEAD AMERICANS.

Green beans better than asparagus.

Change my mind.

Also, where the fuck is your gravy and salt brother.

Nothing about being ignorant, in terms of mortality rate % wise it doesn't hold a candle to SARS COVID 1 or MERS, it just happens to be way more contagious. In terms of individual risk, it's far less deadly, to a population way more deadly. At the beginning of covid-19 much of the fear was that the mortality rate would be closer to the 10% of sars covid I in conjunction with spreading far easier, thankfully that was not the case.

I never said it wasn't deadly lol :bellyroll:

I appreciate any conversation in which eloquent and impassioned arguments are presented. I hope no one complains about this thread.

Jfc here we go again.

This pandemic, along with all of the ones before, is mother nature's way of saying that there's too many people in this world, and she's gonna take some of them out.

The world population will eventually become naturally immune from this particular strain of virus, just like it has to all of the previous strains before the first vaccinations were ever developed.

Unfortunately, some viruses take more lives than others and you must accept that. These viruses have been around A LOT LONGER THAN THE HUMAN POPULATION has. This is their playground, we are merely their guests.

One should worry more about that next giant meteor that is due to hit Earth........which is late.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=j12J3PCai5A

If disease A kills 100% of 1000 people before running out of steam, and disease B kills 1% of 1,000,000,000 people, disease B is 10,000 times deadlier. If you have a choice of two jobs, one which makes $1000 an hour and lets you work one hour a month, or another that pays $100 an hour and gives you 40 hours a week, which job pays more?

I know which disease I'd rather catch, and it's not the one with a 100% mortality rate.

As I stated previously, covid-19 poses a greater risk to a population/community due to how easily it spreads. It poses less of a risk to an individual.

Disease B has killed 10000 times more people but is 99% less deadly?

You have enough hours in a month to work both?


:D

That was my first thought, I could squeeze that extra hour into my work week.

My first thought was how is that analogy about work hours relevant to the thoughts just before it about mortality rates. :iono:

A better analogy would imo be risk to grenading an engine with i/h/e (easily accessible with relatively low risk) vs a turbo kit (less accessible, higher risk). There are likely way more people that have grenaded their engine with bolt ons however it is way more accessible and the percentage of people that have grenaded their engine with a turbo is likely higher although the overall number is lower.

Then you can look at as to whether the engine would have grenaded independently of I/H/E (i.e people in their 80s with chronic disease with poor prognosis like cood, cardiac failure, kidney failure etc).

In the end its way more complex than alluded to. Unfortunately nuance doesnt seem to exist anymore.

Why aren't I vaccinated yet?

Well despite having a severe phobia of needles, the single reason I'm not vaccinated yet is that vaccination isn't available yet for people under 40 years of age in my country (unless you're a front line worker or have some other co-morbidity).

Sitting here eagerly waiting my turn!