New 2022 BRZ - Italian approach....
 

Small premise:
I love the American people and the United States, I worked there for one year in my youth. It's a side of the world that I love and without the American people who liberated us from the Nazis we wouldn't have gained freedom in Europe. You are for the modern world what the Romans were in ancient one.


I have seen the photographs of the new BRZ and I have to say that many of us in Italy were surprised negatively.
About the Japan style it seems that all reference to the purity and cleanliness of the lines has been lost.
It is evident that SoA's presentation makes it in fact designed, born and built for Americans.
Without taking anything away but the world design car is Italian, German French and also Japanese. And it always has been. Japanese design is a world apart and well represents culture and the way of that life.
In Europe, moreover, the automotive world has long been committed to reducing emissions and the BRZ/GT86 in several countries also pays a very high surcharge on purchase (In Italy 1200 euros) and maintenance (France) very high. Some countries then tax the BRZ highly (Norway and Sweden), we are not at Hong Kong levels but very close.
Let's see some impression.
I'm very puzzled.
First of all, it is presented on the market for the American market, then by SoA, Subaru of America. The second world market for Subaru.
So we're not talking about a global JDM model coming to the US market.
Subaru on the US market is a major competitor, almost monopolist of real AWD (see Forester, sales champion in the US market).
That said, stylistically it is evident that Japanese look has nothing even if the touch-ups have made them.
The front looks like a slimmed-down, clumsy Panamera, as wide as a catfish's mouth.
The side overhang tilts the muzzle a lot from the back. The belt line seems to be higher and the side skirts are massive and vulgar.
The stylistically speaking fender vents are commendable but they results to dirty the door profile and here we are not on a GT-R. Only scenes from Fast 'n Furious but power ZERO. The rear fenders are pronounced almost to accommodate 255/35/19.


But there aren't 520 HP


The rear is perhaps the best part stylistically successful even if it seems to see a Mercedes coupe. Really tall, almost like an AWD.

Beautiful rear lights, license plate position from Hyundai.

In short, it is all represented the world of American Mods that 9 times out of 10 for us Europeans are not appreciated in elegance, without any reference to Tommy Kaira Style.
It is infinitely much less aggressive and elegant than the previous MY13-16 series, the more swollen it seems to be.
Interior.
This is where you see all the American spirit in setting up the interior, from a mixed Camaro reception to Toyota (dashboard overhang) and Mercedes Benz Class A. Cyclopic Head Unit, giant climate vents, HU there in the middle of the dashboard seems a late ’70 Brionvega TV (MoMA) and the push start button randomly thrown into the climate section, why not to put it on the steering wheel ? no, too easy? Too much race?.
No, I wouldn't say no. There are already too many buttons on the steering wheel. (maybe copy Porsche a little?)
The dashboard constructively lost the simplicity and essentiality typical of race Japan design. I think it also costs more constructively. (too many profile swings like new Yaris).
Really horrible.
You can say anything you want but it's not a Japanese.
Born, designed, built for Americans.
It has no mood and no emotional transport and no real appeal to the essentiality and minimality that a Japanese has in this segment.
I leave out the mechanical part because he said little about it. For the engine, it is already "proven" in Europe and the aspirate of others (e.g. Nissan) has not had much success and I doubt that it will ever be homologated due to emissions. If it were, for us Europeans, it would be even higher in terms of insurance costs and their stamp duty. Already in half of Europe, the BRZ/GT86 pays high taxes precisely for emissions (see Italy). For 28 hp more maybe the game was not worth.
However, the models that with the restyling have made a thud in Europe there are striking examples and I do not list them. As for the price, the last with ecotax touched in the dealers (I am talking about the high editions that are in Europe) the price of 33,500 euros. If they exceed this figure, in Europe a car with 35 thousand buckets excluding surcharges (France is no less) will be unsellable.
Last note: the digitally cockpits to be copied are those of Ferrari and (limited) Porsche not Ford EU...... or Citroen.
The real plus of the BRZ/GT86 was the price accessibility and the adequate power to have fun with just over 26k dollars while the world of coupe required at least 45k.
I wouldn't buy it today, ever. A real stylistic disappointment.

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I guess if you want to take away something positive from the Gen2 BRZ is that there are no plans to bring it to Europe. Your only hope is that Toyota will bring the 86 to your shores and have a more appealing front end.

Toyota or Subaru need engine change mandatory. In Europe that engine cannot be homologated and several Subaru's car models are today not imported about emission rules. You need to think that Suzuky has had many issues for some models. The only hope are engines like the new one on Yaris GR or a mix-Hybrid like Forester or Subaru XV. Maybe Toyota could, thus it sales 100% Hybrid in our market.

With some European countries taking aim at ICE as early as 2025 (yes looking at you Norway) can you really blame them?

Just saying...

Better get em while you can because CA and other states that adhere to the ZEV standard will start banning sales in 2035.

Or sooner.

Actually, I've about given in to the inevitability of it all. The infrastructure is almost there, and if I'm honest, even with my 80 to 120 mile per day commute, an EV would serve me fine 80% of the time. We'll keep one long haul ICE in the family though until charge times and infrastructure are a closer match.

I'm seriously considering one of the upcoming GM/VW/Ford EVs. The Cadillac Lyriq and the VW ID4.Space Vizzion look promising, even as a potential medium trip hauler.

Yes, it's coming and we might as well embrace it rather than fight it. I do like the Tesla although I hope that competition and advances in technology will bring the pricing down to where an ICE vehicle is today. That would cause less pain on the pocketbook and make the switch to an EV easier.

I think this is the best strategy if you're to semi early adopt as it keeps you somewhat safe. Although, ease of charging is not yet ready for mass adoption, especially when you consider time to charge for some vehicles.

Too much uncertainty, everyone reporting different year mandates.

Agreed on the charging, that's basically the fly in the ointment for me. As I've said before, I don't care what powers my car, as long as it is not a deciding factor in the way I plan trips.

The more I hear Chris Harris the more I like him. In this video, he hits the nail on the head starting at around 5:00 minutes. Paraphrased:

"The simplicity of ICE is that the car bends to meet your requirements. If you have a debit card, you can go anywhere. With an electric car, you never know what you are going to get in terms of charging."

Good talk about hydrogen and other fuels as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaE57tChPQM

Some more interesting stuff in his Honda E reviews I posted here.

Yes all the different dates from countries, regions and even different departments within them seem to conflict.

But...

Every quarter for the last 4 years I have to sit on a 2 hour call while a VP goes through 100 slides on this subject. It is pretty much a 2 hour "Let's get rid of ICE" pep talk but the developments that have been made and are coming very soon are real. Many have not been released yet and some are just starting full field trials but I assure you no matter what the different deadlines are the ICE shit will hit the fan starting 2025.

All the "well what about this and that" arguments the internet commentators will provide have been thought of and are being acted on. The people working on this are not dumb, deluded nor part of some bizarre conspiracy theory to lie to the public. The elimination of the ICE engine has started and will roll out faster every single year.

That's where we differ, as much as I want to, there are too many negatives for me with all the Tesla models.

Chris is really good, been watching him now for almost 10 years. The discussion is good, I'll have to finish it later.

Something that caught me in the video is the other guy saying they are still going to invest in more windfarms.. now I understand the UK is a "windy place", but the windfarms we have here are a bit of a waste of investment, I'd love to see how well they perform in the UK.

He also admits they aren't a solution in themselves though, just part of it.

The only way the new GR86 will have a success in Europe is if it comes with a 1.8L turbo engine ,even if it makes only 180hp <lower taxes and easy to tune <priced under 34000€ in a country like France and under 30000€ lets say in Germany.That is a successful formula for European buyers

The windfarms we have here are a waste of investment due to politics and poor management not because they are bad.
They pay more than market rate for the power they generate. Send half that to the US for 20% of what was originally paid for it and then charge back the difference, and a profit to the Canadian consumers.
One of the weirdest scams ever done!

Sounds like the huge solar energy field they are building in Australia, which has actual electrical grid shortages, that is going to all be piped to Singapore.

Canada has to be one of the dumbest countries in the world. Aside from constant virtue signalling that results in nothing, it sounds like we get taken for a ride with our natural resources.

Alberta Oil gets sent to the US to get refined (they buy at a discount), then we have to buy back the refined product at a higher price......

Hey, we got free healthcare alright.

This is one of the key things holding back sales of EVs in Australia. The rapid charging infrastructure just isn’t here. There are like half a dozen charging stations in my city - OK for the handful of Teslas and Leafs sold here each year, but nowhere near enough to accommodate any growth in the number of EVs. Also, our govts don’t incentivise EVs the way some countries do, so the retail price is still huge compared to an equivalent ICE.

There is also the issue that as much of our electricity is generated by burning coal, at this stage the full green benefits of EVs would not be realised - we’d just be shifting the source of the pollution from the exhaust pipe to the coal fired power stations.

Sadly, that consigns EVs to a trendy fashion statement for wealthy people for now. For wide scale adoption, Australia would have to massively invest in the infrastructure for rapid charging, including thousands of extra charging stations, massive change in our energy generation to be both cleaner and with way more capacity, and extensive govt subsidies to lower the entry price and reduce barriers to adoption. But so far, our govts don’t seem overly interested.

I agree with you.
Upon European regulations, but also on the basis of the European culture of living the car, a number of general manufacturers have had to adapt themselves in recent years.
Take BMW, for example. The M3 a decade ago was a Sport car and was just a coupe.
Well, in Europe, sports car coupes are no longer lovede and sold, they are emotional and irrational vehicles but not functional and people buy M3 and M4 sedans. Sports cars across Europe are now relegated to brands such as Porsche and BMW (I exclude high level Ferrari and Porsche) but you have to pay at least 80 thousand euros to comply with the regulations. They are reserved for those with high incomes in Europe. If you earn 120 thousand euros /year you can barely manage a 718 Cayman (in Italy we are talking about 6,800 euros of annual taxes that decrease after 5 years of very little). Taxes are high everywhere. Perhaps only Germany is saved. But for France, Spain, Italy, Norway, Sweden, Belgium, Denmark it is a massacre. Don't count Eastern Europe... have average national incomes of 22 thousand dollars and tax evasion higher than that of Italy. I often go to Romania and see from Lamborghinis to Ferraris and Porsches as if I were in Frankfurt....
Today gasoline in Italy costs 1,53 euros per liter (100 RON) in a Covid period emergency, where the price has gone from 1,956 to 1,530 in two months.
To have the price converted according to the American scheme are 5,78 euros per gallon. And it's the lowest price in almost 12 years.
That's why when the BRZ /GT86 came out it was a great success.
Today, proposing it with an increased displacement (with the doubts I mentioned earlier) and a higher cost will make it unsellable in Europe because we need to add all the surcharges for emissions.In Italy at least 1,500 Euros, in France the yearly overrun 3,400 Euros.
In add, take insurances costs. I am on road since 1986 with only a crash in 1994 on my insurance score (- 0 range now), I pay for BRZ 1,600 Euros per year (mandatory civil and kasko collision) and 500 Euros as local road tax. A driver (young 25 aged) with a 4 or 5 range of score might pay over 2,800/3,200 euros. If you live in Naples or Rome costs are much more higher.
The only solutions is offer it with a more efficient engine not over 2000 cc. This is the reason why here in Europe we love power small turbo engines. These engines saved Chrysler thanks to Fiat techs.

Honestly, Chris Harris is too good. A genuine car enthusiast.

And i was thinking that Italy was one of the countries with cheapest price in sportscars in Europe.I mean 29k € for a gt86 and around 38k € for a 370z was really nice.Here gt86 was 37500€ and 370z 60k+€.But i see now that it has high annual costs in your country.

last price for last units was near 30K ecotax included but only high edition not the rock and road edition of GT86 (brembo and sachs shock absorber) near 33,5K. The ultimate Edition of BRZ (50 units) are 39K today, few residual units.


Here you see Subaru's price (but there aren't anymore units in Italy, only the upcoming Ultimate). You need to add 750 Euros about local tax, registration then 1,2k euros ecotax. Sale discount upon dealer policy (2/3 K euros)

What's your point? Both the EU and each individual country (France.. ugh!) has pushed purchasing & owning sports cars out of reach for the middle class. It's by design. The average young person can't afford purchasing or maintaining a cheap new car either. Car costs go up while wage growth has been flat for years (decades!).

Toyota and Subaru know the 2022 cars aren't viable in Europe due to taxes and regulations. They're not gonna spend the money to develop a small, bespoke, turbocharged engine to bring down retail price of a super low volume car in Europe. The math doesn't add up. Meanwhile, they won't have any issues selling the car in USA, Japan, Australia and other markets. The Nissan 400Z will be skipping EU altogether as well.

If we're lucky, Toyota will bring the GR 86 regardless, as they have one of the lowest CO2 fleet averages in Europe and can avoid penalties. Subaru's CO2 fleet average is really poor so that's why they can't afford to bring the BRZ over.

Yes, it sucks paying $50K for a car that Americans pay $30K for. Blame the politicians. Buy used instead. Or get another hobby. Those are our options :)

Oh and by the time electric cars are cheaper than ICE.. then governments will start taxing BEVs more heavily based on purchase cost but also on miles traveled. Fuck govs :)

I should move to Germany.. :D

You're definitely right.
But Sergio Marchionne once said that to exist in an automotive market you have to make numbers, and also many. And he was right. Atlantis teaches...
You can't think of living alone only on American sales numbers. So much so that some American companies have saved themselves in aggregation. If you are a conglomerate you have to make global platforms and produce to sell all over the world. Otherwise the business is not standing. How do you make a small European-cut BMW X1 you also do it of high displacement for Americans but it is not that you stop producing it.
Today in Europe vehicles such as Yaris Gr , Abarth 500, Corsa, Renault Clio, Megane RS, are loved and gain market but real sport coupes aren't sold.
Brz/86 arrived, now there is a risk that to look only overseas you loose the entire European market that at the middle class level cannot pay 66k euros of 718 (Italian base stock price edition).
In the long term, I do not know whether trade policy is really performing. Nissan itself had problems when approached models in this way.

you guys do know we have a new section for the BRZ ;)

https://www.ft86club.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=98

Yeeah ! Maybe Admins can move this thread?

GR Yaris is a money-losing project for Toyota, only justified by their WRC homologation requirements.

Subaru brand as a whole probably has a couple years left in Europe. I expect the brand to disappear here very soon... their engines aren't compatible with EU market regulations, and it doesn't look like they're going to deploy hybridization quickly enough. They stuck to boxer engines, and today their packaging puts them at a disadvantage for electrification and turbocharging. Unlike other manufacturers of inline-4 engines, they cannot downsize and make 3 cylinder boxers. I expect the new Subaru WRX and STI to skip Europe as well.

Clio RS and Megane RS may have reached end of the line... Renault execs have said they might never get replaced, because after taxes and penalties, prices will be pushed to a level where they would compete with "real" sports cars like their Alpine A110. So I'd count the RS line as dead.


Sadly our best bet in Europe is buying used right when a model is killed and the interest fades.. but before it becomes a classic and used prices rise again.

i think there is a good chance. the test mule was spotted testing with the A110.

Just because it was spotted testing at the 'ring with a benchmark car doesn't mean much, especially at early development stages.

One the one hand, Toyota EU seems better suited to sell the car here due to their much better average fleet emissions.
On the other hand:
-the 1st gen. car appealed to a small market, which has likely grown smaller (some gen. 1 buyers may not be the regular, repeat type of customer, plus a 2.4 nat. asp engin will be much more taxed than the '13 car when when it was launched)
-they have no one to share the homologation costs with
-Toyota doesn't need a halo car as much as it did seven years ago, with the Supra and the GR Yaris already on the market

I'd say the odds are split at this stage.

This must be the sour grapes thread

From what I've seen the US response has been mostly the same - at least as far as looks are concerned.

I think something people forget about EVs and charging is that you have a charging station at home. You basically leave every morning with a full tank. Imagine how often you would need a gas station if you had a gas pump in your garage and filled up every morning before you left.

Yeah, you need something for road trips, but honestly, if I had an EV and was planning a road trip, I'd just rent something.

I agree on that point. Actually in my case I wouldn't even really need to charge at home. I could charge for free right outside my window at work. There are four employee charging stations there that were part of a new construction we just completed.

That's where we differ, even though it is a viable option. I don't want to have to rent something when I have a perfectly good vehicle capable of doing the mission at home, and I don't want to have to add hours to my drive because of charge times. So, unless Hydrogen becomes a real thing, or charge times get to under 20 minutes, I'm going to own one ICE road trip car.

Yeah, it depends on your other vehicles and needs. I don't think we're ready to go 100% EV yet, but I think we'll get there eventually. Once they get self-driving EVs, a lot of folks wont even own a car - you'll just pay driverless Uber or some other car service.

For the amount of driving I do and the climate I live in an ev makes sense. However, my car is paid for and has 62k on it so that makes things less complicated lol