new to HPDE, need advice about ABS
 

I’m brand new to HPDE, just did my second weekend of it. I’ll be going back in December.

This time my instructor said that my ABS was kicking in quite a bit. He said to see if there is a way to adjust it to be less sensitive but not turn it off yet.

Does Track Mode do this? This is what the manual says about it:

When the switch is pressed and held for 1 second or more, “TRACK” mode is activated. Control characteristics such as the Vehicle stability control (VSC) and TRAC are adjusted to afford maneuverability closer to what a driver may desire, while a sense of security is retained.

It doesn’t explain what it’s changing but do you think this would accomplish what I need?

ABS intrusion is a fixed amount.

More information is needed, type of brake pads, alignment, tires, etc all can cause ABS to act differently.

This is still the stock 2019 BRZ with performance package. Only thing I've done is get the high performance brake fluid.

Tires are the Michelin Primacy HP's that came with it. I did adjust my tire pressure based on my instructor's advice during the event.

Brake pads are still the originals that came with it (Brembos) but my instructor advised me to have them checked out due to ABS coming on so much.

Nothing has been done to the alignment.

I have no idea what brake pads or tires to get when I need to replace them.

This is my daily driver so I basically want to drive it ON the track, the way I drove it TO the track. I won't be the person putting on special tires or brake pads for the track. At least not at this point!

Thank you for responding.

I've never known any cars to have adjustable ABS (though I suppose it's possible). Are you sure he was talking about the ABS rather than stability control? If he was talking about stability control (seems more likely to me) then yes track mode/long hold will reduce the intrusion without getting rid of it entirely (pedal dance). It will allow a lot more slip angle before it jumps in to try and save you.

Thank you for the reply!

Well, he kept talking about my ABS and never mentioned stability control. I don't know if he was feeling ABS coming on or stability control. He said it was a chirping. I may have felt something near the end of my hard straight line braking but I am not sure what he was feeling/hearing or referring to. I am not sure what ABS and traction control would feel like. He drives Miatas so is probably not familiar with track mode on this car, either.

Would some kind of data logger record if ABS and/or traction control were coming on? I honestly am not looking at my dashboard while driving. Maybe if I had video plus the data about it coming on, I could figure it out easier.

So long hold, not the short 1 second? My manual seems to imply the long hold will turn it off? Here's what it says:

Your instructor is probably talking about VSC or EBD activity.

Are you using "Track Mode"? That will tone it down a bit, but ultimately when you get enough experience to feel comfortable with less nannies you're going to need to do the 5-second hold on TC Off button. On '17+ cars that's enough, turns off all nannies except ABS, you don't need to "pedal dance".

While we're talking about it, if you *ever* see the VSC warning light and/or ABS light at the track, be *SUPER* easy on brakes at next brake zone and bring it in.
https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142525

I did not use Track Mode but I am wondering if that's I should try next time as an in-between but not having the nannies fully off.

VSC Warning Light - whoa, that sounds scary! I will have to pay more attention to the dashboard. Right now I feel so overloaded just getting around the track that I haven't looked down much at all.

Thank you for the info!

Highly recommend this! Ultimately you'll get to the point where the nannies that remain active will bother you with their intrusions and then you can do the 3-5-second hold on the TC Off button.

It's pretty unlikely to happen. But yeah, as you get more comfortable at the track you should make it one of your "gauge checks".

Racecars with motorsport ABS can adjust ABS. Street cars, I don't think I've ever seen adjustable ABS, outside of Ferraris.

Ya I was referring to street cars. Not surprised that some hyper cars might have the adjustability; just never heard it mentioned.
I was unaware that the long hold was significantly different on '17+. Thank you for the clarification.

You will feel ABS working while you're pressing the brake pedal, the pedal will pulse. It's hard to not notice it or mistake it for something else.

Tonight go find a safe, clear, empty road, get up to 30+ mph and then try to break your brake pedal so you can feel the abs working. Do a real panic stop, it's an important learning lesson for every single driver on the road to understand how to stop their car as quickly as possible.

It's not clear, were you driving with traction control? Your instructor may be feeling the traction control kick in which does feel slightly like ABS as it applies the brakes to prevent the car from sliding. Older instructors may not be hip with the latest tech from the '80s. :) (which means I agree with above, instructor was feeling the vsc/tcs/whatever you want to call it)

I though EBD was still active on the new cars with the 5s press?

I mean, it's a good thing imho, helps trail brake way more effectively without risking a lockup or dropping the brake pressure to near useless levels to prevent locking up. Pedal dance still effective for people who prefer single channel non-EBD ABS action.

Gents : After stepping up to a 2020 from a 2013, I've only had the 2020 on track a few times now. I have just done the pedal dance every time (except one), which is more habit perhaps than necessity since I absolutely had to use pedal dance to drive the 2013 at more than "pedestrian pace" on track.

The one time I forgot to do pedal dance the system stepped in on the out-lap and I thought "Oh crap... I forgot to pedal dance." I pushed and held the button for a while, and my memory tells me I got the TRAC OFF, and VSC OFF indicators (as I was used to for pedal dance). But I sort of doubt that outcome given what the manual says (should only occur if the vehicle is stopped). To be honest I didn't pay that much attention, I just wanted to get back to hot pit to do pedal dance to be able to drive the session. Whatever mode I was in did allow me to move at a reasonable pace on the out lap back to the hot pit. Way way better than my 2013 would have allowed even with a long press while stopped. I wonder what mode I was actually in now...

Pressing the button for 1+ sec should give you TRACK mode when moving, but the 3+ sec VSC+TRAC off are not avail when moving? (that's what the manual seems to indicate).

@ZDan - you say 5+ sec. The manual says 1+ sec = track, 3+ sec = VSC/TRAC off. Is there a 3rd mode at 5+ sec?

Maybe I need to try that - I've just been doing what I did on the 2013...

Thanks.

This may be lack of sensitivity on my part, but honestly I never ever noticed pulsing or anything with the ABS on my car at the track. In fact now that I'm running with the ABS fuse pulled and getting front lockups semi-regularly, I'm *sure* the car musta been ABSing quite a lot previously! Maybe '17+ ABS is smoother and less noticeable?

If EBD is active with the 3-5-sec hold on the TC Off button, it's unobtrusive to the point that I don't notice it. I have tried both back-to-back and damn if I could tell any meaningful difference in feel at turn-in with trailbraking, or lap times. 5-sec hold is easier so just stuck with that ;)

With my '17, you *can* do the 5-sec hold on the Trac OFF button while moving!

normal 5-sec hold I bet ;)

No, you have to hold the "Track" button for about a second, or you can hold the "TC OFF" button for I guess 3 seconds (seems like 5 when I forget and have to do it out on track!) to get the *real* (IMO) track mode with VSC fully off.

@86league you can do the 3s/5s (same thing, people just get impatient and it feels like 20s) at speed in the older cars. The two yellow lights are the indicator that you're in the 'tc off' mode.

I am hearing different opinion on the ABS, some people says keep it, some take it out. Cannot make a clear path here.
I am running a NA, tuned, BBK race compound pads with 200 tires. Doing HPDE events.

which should the advisable progression be as a driver? Learning how to brake without ABS or keep it running.
What does faster times make for this platform? With or without ABS, assuming driver has the correct skills.

I don't think there's a lot in it in terms of absolute lap times. Should be a slight advantage with ABS vs. perfect non-ABS braking, more significant advantage overall as not many can brake perfectly every for every corner, every lap. I had been meaning to try it as I get a 42 lb. weight break for time trials with ABS disabled, then I was kinda forced into trying it (malfunction causing ABS to lock front tires!). AFter running without ABS for a few events, and flat-spotting a Hoosier A7 last time out, bad enough that I had to time trial on street tires (doh!), next year I'm planning to use it again.

Thanks for the tips, I'll find an empty road to try that.

I didn't push any of the track buttons so everything would be normal and on.

This was only my second time to do this so I am still learning what is happening with my car. It was overwhelming at times but lots of fun.

Just to clarify, this refers to the VSC and/or ABS light coming on and staying on for some amount of time, not just flashing? Given the potential consequences, I just want to make sure I understand!

In my case it was both the VSC warning light and ABS light coming on solid (and disappearance of the TC Off and VSC Off lights which are otherwise on when running with the 3/5-second hold). Somebody else reported similar weird/bad behavior when just the ABS light came on, solid.

VSC light flashing I think just means it's intervening "normally". I think you'd see that in "Track" mode, but you shouldn't in 3/5-second hold mode.

the theory for going without ABS is to improve driver capability (threshold braking), instead of relying on vehicle systems to keep the car properly situated. ABS inherently will not activate until after there's slippage. so by driving at a performance level that eeks all of the performance of a car without inducing wheel slippage, the theory is that it makes for a more competent driver, which can then turn better lap times.

the reality is that ABS systems have gotten extremely good. and until you're at the very upper levels of competition, i'm not convinced that the ABS system of this vehicle will ever hold you back-- i'm now more convinced that it can actually keep one from getting too far past their limits, unless there's a serious malfunction like zdan experienced.