How about a couple pictures this time?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FkS7kv1X0AMwioH.jpg
https://www.nationalworld.com/jpim-s...640&quality=65


So you saying you are a SJW? :popcorn:

lol

is this a government is going to save us from the scary evil corporations argument? I see your chart is from europe, the only place with arguably a worse track record than the united states of domestic, foreign and economic policy being utter failures in modern history.

But let's just pretend for a moment that those corporations are doing these evil corporation things outside of the economic policy those governments have created. How is more government involvement going to change that? It's almost as if the economic policy is the cause for it, or something....? Nah, let's just double down instead.


*edit* since you like charts so much

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...B8-2804104.png

First one is US. Second is EU. Corporations are global conglomerates. What's true everywhere is true here. Charts are the same, just different ways of showing the same thing. Based on the charts, you might have to redirect some of your misplaced blame to corporate monopolies and oligopolies. These corporations are evil? No. They are just playing the capitalist game and looking after number one and their shareholders. What would you have had the government do, place price controls? Sounds a little socialist.

The Top 1% of Americans Have Taken $50 Trillion From the Bottom 90%—And That's Made the U.S. Less Secure

https://time.com/5888024/50-trillion...ality-america/

https://api.time.com/wp-content/uplo...roFY-FT-PA.jpg


Maybe things are better for others :iono: Sorry for your situation.

https://www.statista.com/graphic/1/2...roduct-gdp.jpg
https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-conten...02/image-3.png
https://www.hiringlab.org/wp-content...l-Feb-2023.png
https://static.seekingalpha.com/uplo...001-202301.png

Misplaced blame? lol, they both suck and neither one gives a fuck about you, me, or anyone else.

The difference is nobody from some corporation came along and decided to rob me of my earned income that stole hours, days and years of my life by printing 12 trillion dollars in the matter of a few months. No corporation decided we needed QE, 0% effective interest rates and to buy trillions and trillions of MBS to prop up the economy that they themselves crashed with their prior clown shoes economic polices.

No corporation sent me a notice in the mail that my property tax was going up 35% because my shitty little house all of a sudden doubled in value, allegedly. They wouldn't buy the place at that bs made up valuation either, I asked.

I have freedom of choice to do business with corporations, I don't have a choice to do business with government lest they show up at my house with men holding weapons and compel me to do so under threat of violence. Many of those 1%'ers who are enriching themselves ARE the government btw. How is nancy pelosi's or mitch mconnell's investment portfolio doing these days?


I'm sure the median household income going up $3k since 2019 will be a huge help now that median houses are $420,000 and median vehicle price is $40k. Single digit wage increases in the face of double digit inflation over the same time period. fantastic.

Everything these people touch goes to shit and you think it's necessary for them to be involved in ev's as well? they already hosed up the fossil fuel industry trying to pick winners and losers and have enriched some of the west's worst enemies in the process. yeah, let's have them work that magic on electric cars as well.

You will have nothing and be happy

They did by robbing/hoarding wages. If you were a median worker making $42k more per year ($92k vs $50k) then that 35% increase in property taxes wouldn't seem so bad, and you could retire a lot younger. And don't worry, prices for homes will likely drop, so your property taxes were only temporarily elevated.

Again, you seem to be blaming the government in an attribution error, while ignoring the situation of the times and having hindsight bias.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/yZAot5UzLv4

I don't have a problem with them accelerating the adoption of renewables and moving our infrastructure and transportation to use renewables. Renewables are cheap and mean we will have economic security and self-reliance with energy independence.

You already have nothing. You are already in extreme amount of debt because of corporate greed and wage theft. Everyone is in debt for their mortgage, car, education, and to feed consumerism with credit card debt, so no one owns anything except the rich, which want to keep getting richer. The masses that are addicted to consumerism are getting angrier and angrier and blaming either side or government, yet who is winning...the rich clearly keep getting richer. If you have nothing, it isn't going to be because someone took a percentage of your scraps; it is because all you got were scraps.

https://media.makeameme.org/created/...sm-be-like.jpg

corps caused inflation by not paying enough? you have got to be trolling.

They will surely save us this time. Pay no attention to the net worth of these same individuals, it's those horrible corporations.

https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...735&height=610

https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...751&height=610

Inflation came from a change in supply and demand and corporate greed capitalizing on that opportunity. Wage inflation and increased costs were greatly overshadowed by corporate profits, which didn’t lead to investment, trickle down, but just CEO salary increases and stock buybacks.

12 trillion in new money injected into the economy had nothing to do with it.

got it. :lol:

Sure, whatever you and Karine Jean-Pierre say. He has the most diverse staff of any president, that must mean they are the best, and know the best for all of us. Bidenomics rock :rolleyes:

There was a rapidly crashing GDP that could have led to a greater loss of confidence in the economy and a retraction of private investment. More companies would have had to file bankruptcy or would have failed completely. Without a government investment in infrastructure and stimulus to create investor confidence and revive the economy, we could have been sunken into a long term recession/depression. Instead, we recovered faster. If we didn't have the wave of corporate greed then we wouldn't have seen the level of inflation that we did.

‘We may be looking at the end of capitalism’: One of the world’s oldest and largest investment banks warns ‘Greedflation’ has gone too far

https://fortune.com/2023/04/05/end-o...orate-profits/

https://www.statista.com/graphic/1/2...roduct-gdp.jpg

Posted this in another thread. This makes the case that much stronger for lithium iron phosphate batteries.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8xNjz73p80

I think this EV SUV will sell well with typical Lexus owners, and I think that is what Mark is missing. I don't think the vehicle needs the latest tech, the best battery or engines, the most range, or even more range. Part of the video Mark is praising the vehicle, and the other times he is holding it to the standards of other cars from the likes of Tesla/Lucid/Rimac/etc, even though he is not dropping names (it is obvious). In general, he wouldn't be any more excited to drive a Lexus ICE version of this car. If anything, the quiet, torquey and smooth powertrain and lower COG would be preferred to what he was lamenting was the hybrid 4 cylinder turbo powertrains. He is saying no from the perspective of a journalist who drives sports cars and who drives the latest tech, and in the EV space, the competition is fierce, yet he is missing the target audience, which is older more conservative types who buy a Lexus for its build quality, reliability, brand name, comfort, etc. These are people who probably own a Lexus SUV and are likely going to buy a Lexus SUV again, but now they have an EV option that mostly feels like a Lexus, but happens to be an EV.

The general consensus with the Lexus RZ is that its a good Lexus, but a meh EV. Same as the other eTNGA offerings (Bz4X/Solterra). EV tech wise it seems to just be "good enough", which is probably all it needed to be. Otherwise you have to chase the latest Tesla tech and it costs money to do so. the latest Ioniq (which to be fair if you DONT get the topmost trim you get something a little more comparable to what the Toyota cars provide), the VW ID cars are pretty much known to be mostly bleh and comparable, and the Chevy Bolt (EV fanboys favorite "cheap" EV) has equally comparable specs.

The Toyota triplets seem to be better than the Leaf, and "better than the leaf" seems to be the bare minimum to get a passable EV out there, so i dont think they're as bad as its made out to be. you read about how people get one and end up liking it, i think its because...it doesnt feel like a rolling smartphone. It feels like a car that is powered by electricity.

Sure range and charging are the toyota triplets biggest drawbacks but EV fanboys seem to completely forget all about the "charge at home" or "the average driver only drives so many miles " EV positives when it comes to the Toyota cars.

While lots of people want and like Tesla or an EV that looks like an EV, there are many people who just want something that looks like an ICE vehicle and doesn't scream EV or doesn't have the Tesla ethos of design. This looks more EV than most Lexus vehicles because it doesn't need a grill, and not having a grill is better for aerodynamics, but besides that, this is the EV for someone who just wants something that looks like a typical Lexus.

I'm agreeing with @Irace86.2.0 on this one.

Ultimately, just like with ICE, there needs to be a full range of EVs if they are every going to fully succeed. That means not every version is going to look like the cabin of the Starship Enterprise (or your desk at work if you want a Tesla).

Powering my next vehicle with electrons doesn't matter to me as much as the vehicle meets the criteria I want. That's why I am #1 at my local Cadillac dealership for a LYRIQ. If they built the exact car with the twin turbo V6 in the CT5-V, I'd buy that instead. I think the state of charging in the areas I drive long distance is good enough now, that electrons or gas doesn't matter as much.

Perhaps this is just a recall, or a request to summarize, but at this point in time, in the EV industry, why would anyone pick a Tesla over any other EV? And I'm talking about your ho hum boring daily commuter.

The obvious answer is range (and depending on many factors, possibly price). What's this "Tesla tech" being referenced? Their self driving aids are nothing special, and IMO only attractive to people that enjoy placing their life into the hands of a computer.

Their build quality inside and out is subpar. Their paint is the worst in the industry. To me, all I can come up with is "range" and their charging network (but to me that's becoming irrelevant since other brands can utilize it now).

The build quality has improved, and as far as paint, can it possibly any worse than what is on a GEN1 86?

You pretty much nailed it though, it is the charging network combined with a similar sense of "prestige" that Apple has with their iProducts.

Range isn't really a factor I don't think. Most other similarly priced EVs have similar ranges, give or take.

Obviously other EVs are selling so Tesla isn't the only choice, but for a lot of folks it seems to be first choice.

Pricing is a big one. At least in the EU, a Model 3 is cheaper than a less powerful automatic -petrol- Golf, a plug-in Prius or a small electric hatchback.

^&^^thanks for the answers :w00t:

When did build quality improve? I drove my brother's new Model Y Performance 2 months ago, and the interior was cheap.

And to answer question about paint, yes. Yes.

The most recent examples seems to have improved quality (i think certain cars too...mainly Model 3 I believe). Still not amazing but better than it started off as.

Tesla is still the #1 choice because yea, its got the Apple-like cult following and the charging network making road trips a nonissue. You read about the nightmares of the non-Tesla charging networks and its enough to just say hell no to a non-tesla.
But is going that route worth dealing with the Elon factor (which to be fair isnt going to be a deciding factor to many people), the fact you are paying luxury car prices for what amounts to be something built like a 90's GM car, and the fact you pretty much defer nearly everything driving related to the computer....

I wouldnt get one, cuz i still want to DRIVE the thing. I'd like quirky EV's (like VW id.Buzz...although the buzz on that has died down since it looks like a regular van now) or a Honda e, and i think BMW is doing pretty good with their EV's....although they're styling direction (fugly grilles aside) seems to be trending the way MB is....making your premium offerings look cheap as hell for some reason.

Provide me with an EV where i can basically just swap out the ICE and have the exact same "get in and drive, and not think about anything unless i need to" and I'd be on board. Id prefer to not to adjust my habits because of "fuck you that's why".

Build quality is different than materials used. I read build quality as panel gaps, squeeks, groans and such. From what I've read on other forums, Tesla has improved it's build quality. Just looking at the new Model 3 you can see it. That is relative however. Still not up to true luxury standards as far as materials or build though IMO.

Tesla's minimalist interior is a nonstarter for me and it's just getting worse (removing stalks from the model 3, the stupid "yoke" steering wheel, etc, moving EVERYTHING to the console. Just yuck.

I would say there are two types of EVs: vehicles like the Bolt, Leaf, Lightning, RZ350, LYRIQ, etc, which are convention and just swap the ICE powertrain for the EV powertrain, and then the new guys like Tesla, Rivian, Lucid Air and premium vehicles like the Hummer EV. The latter companies have included cool tech in the cars, some of which, are features that an ICE could have too like Autopilot, crabwalking, or basic things like large frunks or like the Rivian's pass through storage. The Lexus RZ has no frunk, for instance.

Things that make the Tesla special over a Bolt or Leaf has been range, performance, price, Autopilot/FSD, the UI, the glass, the charging network, OTA updates, frunk size, crash rating, Sentry Mode, pet mode, phone/remote entry, remote warming, summon mode, etc. The charging speed and network is superior, but also the UI for charging is significantly better. The UI shows charging stations on your route, shows the number of open/total chargers, shows you local stores, restaurants, entertainment that are near the station, integrates the stop into a destination you already have in progress, and then it will condition the battery, so the car is ready to charge when you get to the chargers, and then when you get there, charging is as simple as removing the plug and sticking it in the port; the port automatically opens and your car automatically charges; there is no need to pull out a credit card because it will use whatever card is on file in your system. To use an Apple phrase: it just works. Even though other companies can use the network now, I don't believe their vehicles have the same UI experience, but that could be coming. There may be a point when a Lexus RZ has Sentry mode, Party Mode and falcon wing doors, but I doubt it.

People are still having some build issues, just not with the frequency we used to see them. Panel gaps and other issues. It's gotten a lot better. My uncles model Y has a few panel gap issues and sometimes it is hard to get the hatch to close.


The model 3 does have decent features at the price point. I hate the UI. The adaptive cruise is one of the better that I have used though I still don't like it, dog mode is also super nice if you have pets.

Thanks fellas.

@Irace86.2.0 for what it's worth, the LYRIQ is also a ground up EV, very similar to the Hummer. That said, I suppose it is a more "conventional" vehicle than a technology showpiece.

Most higher end non-Tesla EVs have most if not all the features you mention. The possible exception is dog mode (although you can leave most of them cooling, it just doesn't display it on the screen). I drove a LYRIQ for about 200 miles, and it did all the things you mention with charging along the route, etc. It uses Google Maps for that so pretty much anything you can get on Maps you can get. It also has a couple of other options for routing if you don't like maps.

I'm not saying they are all mark for mark equal to Tesla, but a lot of it is there, minus maybe what I consider parlor tricks (summon, party mode, that type of crap) that I don't want in my car.

Speaking of Summon, given you can't drive a Tesla hands free when in the vehicle, why would I want to trust it to drive when I'm standing outside of it, and have no other control except cancelling? Just my take on it.

The front packaging on the LYRIQ could have been better. I don't buy the engineers that they wanted to optimize the back. A large frunk is nice for storage/security, and as tall as the LYRIQ is, they could have included a front trunk as is, but definitely with better packaging. Overall, the vehicle comes off more traditional, which is fine. It is a great vehicle. Overall, many manufactures seem to be trying to integrate legacy parts into EVs, even if they are on bespoke, skateboard platforms. You can see this with the accessory components under the hood and why the areas are far from optimized.

Do they have Sentry Mode? If seen a few features from other manufactures, but not all features. Someone might have a buggy app with remote heating. Some might have fueling station maps, but the level of execution or the ease of operation is not on the same level. It is good or good enough, but not as crisp. I liken this to Apple having a more refined and integrated approach where apps are optimized more and features are integrated well. Apple does more for updating older models of phones and providing new features too, which is similar to Tesla. The charging network and the charging experience being a huge part of that integration. They are really boosting the competition up by allowing access to their charging network, even if most people will be charging most of the time at home. For many, it would be a deal breaker to not have access to Tesla's charging network.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0Q6bnSlbis

My parents still can't use 3rd party chargers, 19' model 3.

The Chinese version has a front trunk, but it's only about the size that could hold the charger case. When you cram the 19.2 charging unit and a second motor under the front, there really isn't much room. Could they have opitimized some more, probably, but the electronics have got to go somewhere. For me, it's not a deal breaker.

It isn't activated yet, but the LYRIQ has the hardware for the equivalent of Sentry mode, including the slot for the SD storage in the trunk.

Having access to the Tesla charging network next year will be nice. There are videos already of LYRIQs charging at the magic dock Tesla chargers in NY.

No vehicle, of course, is perfect for everyone.

I can't speak to your parent's particular situation or car. Assuming the firmware/software is updated, the car should provide available fast chargers on 3rd party networks, assuming they meet the standards Tesla has set. It may be the case that the 3rd party chargers in their area or that they are going to doesn't meet their high standards.

https://www.tesla.com/support/improv...-fast-charging

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8F8ABoPPp0

Not sure appearing on the nav map in a Tesla and being able to use it are the same thing. @NoHaveMSG seems to be referring to the latter, and your references seem to point to the former.

There is nothing precluding a Tesla from using any 3rd party charger, otherwise it wouldn't be possible for it to appear on the map at all based on the criteria you mention.

@NoHaveMSG seems to be saying that it doesn't work at any 3rd party charger.

Their home charger works, not sure what brand it is but I know it isn't a Tesla one. They have 3 Tesla superchargers 50 miles in any direction. Almost everything is 3rd party around here and most don't work even though other Tesla's charge there no problem. Been through all the software updates and probably around $1k in different charge adapters.

Something about they need a part updated on the car for the charger to work, the Tesla service center won't let them order it and schedule an appointment for install, they have to wait until one is in stock. I dunno, my dad is pretty flustered about it for a while now. The service center here in town is pretty new, open less than 6 months. The car works fine as is with just a home charger for the milage that they use, around 50-60 miles/day.

You opened a can of worms

It's just one anecdotal point. My dad still loves the car even though it is mostly mom mom's. She would still be driving a 05' Elantra if she had a choice.

I see many teslas in west palm beach. Older conservatives who don't like evs still purchase teslas. They're looked at as luxury items and on the island anything with a big 3 emblem is inappropriate.

Yeah that makes sense. I was thinking the firmware/software locked out the car from pairing with a fast charger, but I guess you are right that it is just from the navigation.

:iono: Sounds specific to their car. Bummer.

https://electrek.co/2019/07/09/tesla...ging-networks/