you can t even remotely compare turbo with sc, totally different managing of the boost, you have a wastegate working for it, sc boost depends entirely on pulley, restrictions and iat temperature

Both of those logs I posted are from the Supercharged FRS.


One with First one was with Tomei UEL, second one with stock header with cat......


I own both cars Supercharged FRS, and a Turbo BRZ.
I'm focusing on the supercharged FRS which those two logs are from.

I personally never ran the 90mm pulley setup that came with the kit, so no logs to compare to.


I remeasured the 30mm pulley set along with verifying dimensions for the c30-94 and everything is exactly what should be a 9 psi pulley set. At this point I am either pulling the kit and selling it, switching to e85 with the upgraded injectors I have available, or figuring out a reasonable way to reduce boost.

I usually don't rev past 7200 anyway, but maybe I can get the tuner to move it so it doesn't go more than that. I haven't heard back from Bill yet, but when I do I'll bring up some of the concerns to address.



Most of these pulls were done I think around 40-50 F so it definitely wasn't super warm.

Super strange that we have a similar result, especially considering that all you changed was going back to the stock header.

Just to make you think about the influence of IAT on boost, during summer with 30+ Celsius i get 0.86-0.87 bar of boost from my unrestricted hks V2
in winter under 10 Celsius i get more than 1 Bar


you get a more stable boost only with turbo, or with a restriction in front of the supercharger's charger

So if the lean condition is taken care of, and the revs don't peak at 7500 constantly, is this still safe to run or should I be looking into ways to drop boost levels?

if it doesn't knock... it's ok
I keep lower revs with 95ron fuel (your 91 oct) because that s just too much boost for me for that fuel
your main problem is the lean afr

I do a lot of autocross and quite a few track days, so I just want to be at a reliable power level with the benefit of not melting stuff. I don't want to go e85 just due to spending too much time searching for stations that have it available. I did that last year, but it was irritating. So it's either 91 or e85 for me.

e85 would be a lot safer at high rpm, with the benefit of the huge power bump you'd get
but then you need a flex sensor, fuel pump upgrade and bigger fuel injectors (that would also fix your lean issue though)

You could totally run a flex fuel kit, larger injectors and e85 and be super happy you did. What size injectors do you have? E85 felt like a dropped to a smaller pulley or about the difference between having and not have a supercharger at low boost, meaning there are major gains to be seen.

At this point, you are dangerously lean on the top end, and you are straining the port injectors in general. The port injector duration is not ideal, which means you have to run larger injectors; if you want to run E85 too then that is a separate thing.

Also, did you always have the Ace headers, or did you recently add them and the catless front pipe?

Who is tuning your car? Are those logs with the same tune or with different tunes?

Just fyi, I use to fit six 5-gallon jugs in my trunk (before OEM Audio Plus sub install). With the rear seat folded down, I could probably fit another four 5-gallon jugs at least, but that is 30 gallons of E85 that I stored at the house because the closest E85 is 25 miles away (a new station is coming online this year within two miles of my house!), but I don't drive my car much, so that 30 gallons (plus a full tank of E85) lasts like three months in the summer, and at 50/50 in the winter, it lasts around 5-6 months.

Stock injectors right now, but the kit I bought used came with some Deatschwerks ones that I believe to be 700cc. Not sure how to confirm that yet though, and as of right now they aren't installed.





https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...4bcfb8b3_b.jpgUntitled by hatchethairy, on Flickr


https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...11ff5f76_b.jpgUntitled by hatchethairy, on Flickr


Before installing the Kraftwerks kit I was running a Tsudo UEL header/up pipe, Hooker catless front pipe, OFT tablet on e85. When I installed the Kraftwerks kit I added in the ACE A350 header at the same time.




So to be clear:



I bought a used Kraftwerks c30-94 kit that had the 20mm wide pulley set with 90mm SC pulley(I didn't even realize this until I started this thread).


One of the idler bearings had some play in it, so I bought a new set of the 30mm pulley/belt upgrade before ever installing the kit.



The only thing that doesn't match what Kraftwerks would have sent with a full new kit is the Tial QRJ recirc valve that is venting back to the intake. It has the pink 1.5 spring specific to supercharger applications.


The tune is a FNG from Delicious based on the information I provided to them. I sent logs in for review, and a new tune was sent. A few days later the weather cleared, and I ran some new logs to check things out. My car stopped making power at about 6500. It was WAY worse than the logs I have posted as far as lean condition. To be sure it wasn't just the car, I switched back to the original tune they sent me. Everything acted normal again. Since then, I have sent those new WORSE logs in for review but haven't heard back yet. I don't want to knock their work until I give them a chance to help me out. I just want a safe reliable tune.

I've got four 5 gallon cans that I used specifically last year for my trip to the track, at the track, and the drive back. It isn't completely terrible, but honestly it was kind of annoying. At least with the flex fuel sensor I wouldn't have to worry about switching tunes like I did with my previous OFT setup.


So far the only thing I "think" I need to go e85 is a fuel pump, a new tune, and flex fuel sensor. I already bought a Exedy Stage 1 clutch in preparation for the jump in power. Problem is I don't have the funds right now to do anything else. In a few months I'll be good, but I owe a bit more than expected to Uncle Sam, so funds are just tight.

Your IATs go from 14 cruising to a low of 10 once air speed increases to about 19 degrees at peak boost. The second pull it was 23 then 20 then 32, so yes, it was a cool night. If anything, a cool night might yield more power, but a cool night won't increase boost. If anything, higher temps = higher pressure and lower temps = lower pressure.

I think you have it reversed because you should see more manifold pressure with higher temperatures. You might feel more power in the winter because you have greater air density, so more fuel can be added, and engine timing will be in your favor then, but you shouldn't see more boost.

As you can see, I'm getting 0.87 bar or 12.5 psi and on other pulls up to 0.89 bar or 13 psi at 61 degrees Celsius. I bought the kit off @johan and he saw a peak boost of around 11.5 psi and he lives in cooler Portland.

https://datazap.me/u/jirace/v8-flex-...0&data=8-29-38

no, you are SO wrong mate.
Lower temps bring higher boost, the more density is indeed what causes it. Ask any tuner and you will get the same answer :)

That s also why a turbo has to work harder and faster to achieve same boost with higher temp, because it produces less boost with warm air temp and to open the wastegate it needs to spin faster

it is basic physics

Think about a balloon. Add more heat to the air and what happens? The balloon will get bigger because there is more pressure because the molecules are moving faster and need more space. More heat means more pressure. More pressure = more boost. More boost does not equal more power.

The injectors could be anything. There is no way to tell except bench testing them. You need the original data sheet that came with those to tell. I would ask the original owner or get them bench tested locally.

The reason I ask about the tune was because a header is a significant modification that I hope DT knows about. In other words, you would receive completely different tunes based on your car having headers and a FP versus having the stock exhaust setup. It sounds like they know everything on your car at this time, except, like you, they thought you were on the base pulley.

Also, you were using e85 while NA using OFT on a single tune aka no flex tune setup, so you ran E85 exclusively, right? Or a dual tune, and you would completely deplete your tank then run 91/93, right? You don't still have E85 in your tank now, right?

Man, you are thinking wrong.
Cold air increases boost in a supercharged engine, I have like 350 logs in my datazap of different sc cars and turbo I tuned that could prove you wrong but still I ll enjoy the dinner with my girlfriend instead of searching for them.
It s a very basic thing actually, ask a reputable tuner since you won t trust me, and let me know what they ll say ;)

also, who talked about power? not me
Power is relative, yoy can have more boost and make less power if the fuel doesn t hold the pressure and knocks

Yeah they were given all the info on exactly what I have installed. I can only assume they read what info was given to them though.



I've never and still am not running any pulley other than the base 95mm pulley. The 90mm pulley has never been under the hood of my car, and I have confirmed the 95mm pulley I have installed is exactly 95mm.


I know this shouldn't have anything to do with it, but my car is a 2013, but the engine/trans is from a 2015. Previous owner of the car had the valve spring let go, dealer told him to kick rocks, and then installed a low mileage 2015.


As for previously ran e85, you are correct. I ran an OFT UEL stage whatever for e85 all spring and summer. Once we got chilly weather here last fall, then I switched over to 91 or whatever standard tune. I've run probably 5-10 tanks of 91 since then, so none should be left in the system.

Captain awesome, your boost curve has nothing wrong, your kit has nothing wrong. You only have a shitty tune and bad fuel delivery and/or maximized PI

Anyone have a tuner to recommend other than Delicious? Not ready to jump ship yet, but if the radio silence continues I'd like to have someone lined up and ready.

Irace, remember that an engine is VOLUMETRIC but the fuel supply is managed by the MASS of the air

If you are a "science bitch" you would know what that means, and why hotter air and higher altitude bring the boost down

I could imagine denser ambient air allowing the supercharger to grab more molecules of air, so I could see boost wanting to raise from that, but it also seems like the cooler air would follow basic Gay-Lussac's Law, which states that less temperature means less pressure, so at best, the two would offset each other, meaning more power with the same boost seen. But if you are saying the boost would still raise in colder conditions then I'll have to agree for now, if you have the data for that.

I think we would both agree that if ambient air was fixed then if we saw a drop in manifold air temperature with the addition of say/hypothetically a better intercooler that this would result in less boost pressure, which I know is a different scenario, but just for clarification.

Tomm.brz is right that it is either a failure in your fuel system or an inadequacy of your fuel system given the demands the tune has placed on your port injectors. I have been through this with DT; they will not increase the direct injector duration to accommodate your fueling needs. They didn't for me, and I don't think they will for you. In their opinion, the duration of the direct injectors shouldn't be open much longer than what yours are already at. Unless they changed their perspective on this, they will recommend getting larger injectors for the PSI you are at or lowering your boost. If Tomm.brz is correct then the ambient temperature where you live is cold enough to be raising your boost up enough with the 95mm pulley to cause you to hit higher boost. In that case, you either need to find a new tuner who is willing to increase your direct injector duration or you need to upgrade your fuel system.

Don't get sassy sir :slap:

I think DT is not raising your DI because it screws up their maf/SD precompiled that they have for every car, all the same for everyone and they let Ecutek closed loop control to work instead of them :P
there is no problem in raising DI opening near 5.5ms or even 6ms, it just changes things because the 2 fuel system are not well scaled and calibrated already from factory
Just a question... Normally how many Releases do they take to complete a scaling/remap? not counting the extra like racerom features...

DI in our car has a loot of headroom... what, they think DI is bad? and subaru engine that have only DI should explode?
DI has a great capacity in our car and we can take advance of it
I have people regularly tracking with 1Bar of boost and DI opening at least of 5.5ms trhough limiter, and no one has had problems in years, indeed they have high ignition timings and leaner afr compared to yours and no knocks, and powerful cars.

Sorry for that

I just want to add that as far as temperature goes, I have had several turbos cars I've driven from 100 degrees F to -20 degrees F. In 80 f, my 3000gt vr4 and 02 WRX felt moderately quick. At 30 degrees, they are brutal- the cold air being denser and the low IAT gives much more torque and boost builds much quicker, it's incredible.

A tune meant for summer will run lean in winter.

Turbo is too different, and anyway you have tables and custom maps in ecutek that you can use to manage the difference in iat for the afr
besides that, turbo will always be tied to the wastegate, so you won t see an increase in boost but it will spin lower to reach that
that s also why, if you raised the maximum boost with an EBC, you usually make a turbo boost less than what you do at sea level, because the less denser air would make the turbo aggressively spin too much and even overboost more than the desired target if not well managed

Anyway from june 2018 (racerom 10 and above) every tuner uses the closed loop fuel control, like DT does, and your are pretty much on spot with the afr at any time, both closed and open loop, it basically transform the car in a constant closed loop state without the limitations of the subaru closed loop strategy

Like I said before, DT Zach told me that a F1 engineer who they hired to consult with said the direct injector duration shouldn’t exceed a given value, which is why they don’t go beyond that value. I might still have that email to verify that statement, but that is their rationale.

They ask for a log then do a revision most often after each log. In total I had 8-9 revisions. I had an idle log, another idle with different rpms, a steady state cruise log, a few tip in logs, a bunch of 2k to WOT/redline logs. I did add larger injectors and a flex fuel kit along the way at no extra charge because I bought them in the revision phases to get my fueling right like Captain Awesome.

His duration was already 5.6ms. I agree that other cars must have a longer duration because they don’t have D4S and only direct injectors, but what size are their injectors and what is their duration?

I m not rrally sure the intercooler affects the boost, only the ability to knock more or less depending on how much it cools the charge, because it is after the air is already compressed
But not sure. What i am sure of is, colder AMBIENT temperature will surely bring more boost to the manifold

considering also the modifications along the way, I assure you they work with base maps and modify them a bit... and it shows, seeing the LTFT and CL% they leave you with. Less work for them, less hours wasted, sloppy result for my standard but that s just me.
Anyway from the logs, after he reaches 5.6ms, it goes down... it could be made like 5.8-5.9ms or 6-6.1 in cold weather, to redline, and there is a trick i only see used by european tuners, to overload the high pressure fuel pump to 22psi instead of 20psi (or bar? whatever the unit for it is) at high loads and that would bring down the PI usage.. it increases parasitic loss, yes, but the benefits override this, and also cools more the charge and increases detonation threshold... win-win
the stock mapping for High pressure fuel pump, reduces the pressure to 18 at redline to reduce pumping/parasitic losses because NA this car is already too slow :P but with boost and more than 300 bhp you do not care about that loss at all... damn, you almost don t even care of the loss that carrying a belt driven charger brings...


About the F1 engineer... they work with 20000rpm with narrow band of torque, in a range of rpm that are so high that is known the DI brings disadvantages..
our engine has MUCH lower rpm and i do not see or ever had a problem in raising the DI usage, stock DI can easily open more than 7ms at maximum nominal pressure without bringing fuel delivery issues, 6ms is not THAT much, as soon as you keep an eye at the time between end of injection and the spark firing and keep it more than 1.5-2ms away.. and we can even modify the DI firing angle to avoid that

I was researching and found some information from the WRX guys. They are only running direct injectors, so apparently they are saying OEM is 1500cc or 2000cc injectors from the factory, but they note that the equivalent size is less because of the shorter max duration. Our direct injectors are only 440cc, right? That makes them pretty insignificant in terms of delivery, which is why DT might limit their duration and just leaves them for fine tuning/close-loop activity. I'm not a tuner. I'm just trying to convey what DT could be thinking.

https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/sho....php?t=2891316

yoy do not look only at cc size with DI because it depends also on high pressure provided to them
and 20-22MPa gives you a lot of fuel, even if you are only limited to inject in a window of half the time , compared to PI that can inject at any time
And our DI delivers LOT of fuel if you want.. and remember that the fuel passing through cools the injector, and they are off for 2 stroke out of 4
PI is potentially more prone to overheating

Until 7ms of opening at 20MPa, it doesn t lean out, meaning it provides the fuel needed, so 6ms is a reasonably limit for a cold weather situation, just need to watch you are away from the spark a couple ms at high rpm

I logged my car in NA form time ago, first with PI disabled and then with DI totally disabled
with DI it works all the time providing all the fuel
with only PI you reach 20ms of opening at like 5000rpm, leaning out like the log of OP

Guys, colder air is denser, your balloon analogy is the opposite in this case.
Colder air = denser, = more air into the engine = more fuel to compensate the ratio = more power.

CSG can help. Zach left DT over a year ago, and is now a partner at CSG.

Any idea on price considering my current information?

https://www.counterspacegarage.com/csg-spec-fi86-tunes

No additional upcharge for injector scaling or ethanol, if you happen to have either of those.

Includes as many revisions as needed to make the car run to Zach's satisfaction.

Also, quick turnaround times!

Sounds good. If I don't switch to flex fuel until later, what kind of revision charge would that be? I know I'm going to add it in at a later date, but it's going to be a few months.