Delicious Tuning - NA Development Thread
 

Hi All,

We wanted to let everyone know with the changes to the business last year, I personally went back through all our 86/BRZ tunes and started from a blank canvas. I felt the way the tunes were being handled from initial delivery to final revisions for all our customers, new and old, was not to the level I expected. At the end of the day I am the owner and the lead calibrator of Delicious Tuning, so I can only blame myself on this.

So about a year ago, I made the choice to rebuild the process, work with some highly technical engineers in airflow design, and network/server automation so that we can build a better tune (better airflow in and out of the engine) and have a faster turnaround time (hopefully finish that up this year). It seems that the changes we introduced so far have worked well, as we became the #1 EcuTeK Dealer in the world. Thank all our customers for their support, it was greatly appreciated.

https://www.delicioustuning.com/site...113_111650.jpg


All the NA tunes we offer are brand new as of March 2019, they included extensive testing on quite a few header designs, including specific tunes for the following applications.

2013-1016 Intake Intake Manifold
- Stock 2013-2016 header,
- Stock 2017+ headers,
- ACE 350,
- JDL 4-2-1
- Tomei Unequal

2017+ Red Intake Intake Manifold (manual cars)
- Stock 2013-2016 header,
- Stock 2017+ headers,
- ACE 350,
- JDL 4-2-1
- Tomei Unequal

The major difference between the old/new tunes is in how the ECU adapts to sensor inputs, in what scenarios it adapts, how it adapts in those various scenarios and how quickly it will make changes. These adaptation help smooth out the power delivery, offer a wider / more controlled throttle input, and adjust to the environment conditions more so than before to ensure as much consistency.

Of course we are now using EcuTeK BlueTooth Connect and taking advantage of this through some cool features

EcuTeK BlueTooth Connect Delicious Tuning Customization
- Custom Traction Control Level Slider
- Custom Pops & Bangs Level Slider
- Custom Crackle On/Off Switch

We also have been developing tunes for the following:
- Greddy ITB's - Manifold Air Pressure Sensor Based
- Greddy ITB's - Alpha - N Based (throttle vs RPM)
- Full Blown Motorsports Manifold

In the works are some custom setups we are hoping to release this year, based on the results of of the customers we are working with. The plans are to increase the NA power above what the current limits with the current level of parts in the market.

There is also more in the works this year with further safety features and cool tricks we are implementing with the ECU. So be on the look out.

Safety Features In the Works
- Triple CEL Blink: to notify you when the VVT is not enabled. This is to inform you to drive lightly, as the cams are not active. (complete)
- More custom check engine lights coming for additional safety measures as the year progresses

Cheers,
William Knose
Delicious Tuning

Pushing The Boundaries Since 1999

how much for a 300 hp n/a tune?

my motor is stock, but this guy says it's completely possible

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138720

Not sure what the plan is there. But I have been speaking with multiple engine builders, airflow specialists, and people that have been in the industry way longer then me. The consensus is if you can make this car rev a bit higher and change the airflow in and out of the engine, 250-260 is possible. So an increase of about 40-50 horsepower over what we are currently at.

Regards,
William Knose

i'm mostly just trolling ;)

As soon as I saw NA I thought to myself "Not this thread too..."

@DeliciousTuning Bill, how much money would you say is needed to reach 250-260 hp N/A? And for the heck of it, what do you think would be needed to be done to the FA20 actually reach 300 hp N/A?

You can't put a price on passion, well you can but its over $9000.

I'm thinking it would be a safe bet to say best Ecutek Dealer in the universe.

then someone will ask him for a firefly-class ecutek cable...

You have my attention. What's involved?

You can swap in this beauty :). Imho engine lighter then FA20, NA 356hp, 271Nm, redline 11600 should fit the bill.

Have you guys done any testing/optimization with the Crawford power blocks? I.E. in combo with your other headers etc. Especially for the pump gas crowd these could be a nice incremental addition to the other NA mods.

To be honest not sure on the cost right now. But we have a few things we will be testing out this year while trying to maintain the stock long block.

But if all else fails then a built long block would be next, this of course will dramatically increase the price.

Cheers,
William a.k.a Bill

We have tuned quite a few of them, so there is good and bad on these. Based on stock intake manifolds.

The good, they help the midrange quite a bit, by increasing the torque through 6K RPM.

The bad, they hurt the top end since the runners have become too long, in turn hurting power above 6500 RPM's.

For daily driving, might be nice, but for all out power and top end they do hurt it a bit.

Not fair. :thumbup:

The idea is to try and keep with the stock engine as long as possible. Then if we need to upgrade it a bit, such as head work.

I'll say Ive been on my DT Ace 350 setup for 2 years now with no problems at all. And the turn around time was great on the tunes.


- Have you looked into the Racer-X intake manifold, looks like it has potential but needs a good tune?


- I see you listed the Full Blown Motorsports intake manifold. Is that for FI only or is there NA gains with it.


Im looking to get as much NA power as possible and still remain streetable.

I think there's a ton of the road course guys (including me) that would be 100% in for a lightly opened FA20 that produced 250-260 HP with a ~8K redline. Reliability is huge for road racing, hence why a lot of us want to stay as far away from FI as we can.

Thinking just ported heads and cams or something a bit more involved? Maybe valvetrain and oil pump for the extra bit of revs

This is MEEEE!!! Dont want to go FI, but need more umph to get to my allowed 12:1 hp / lb. There just isnt enough weight to cut out of the car at this point to get there...but all the FI TT / ST guys I know are on engines # 2 #3 or 4.

^^ I echo his sentiments. DT has been great to me, and would love to see you guys bring some more NA power to the table!

Youd need a 2.3L stroked short block, paired with something like element tunings “big valve head,” cams, ace 150 header, ITBs or a manifold designed around high rpm efficiency so maybe shorter runners. on E85 rev to at least 8k and i could see 250whp possible on a friendly dyno probably closer to 230-240whp on most dynos.

Yeah for non sustained high RPM use they seemed to help - they also do respond to further tuning once installed, you can recover some of the power loss at the very top with increased timing (apparently lower VE/cyl pressures in that range vs without them). Even for track use though I'd think they'd benefit in the 5000-6500 range - anyways just curious. Thanks for the reply

I believe somebody in 86CUP is also running that engine as well. If money weren't an object, I would love to build an 86 track car with an engine like it.

On topic, interested to see how this goes!

this.

It sounds glorious. I seen't it.

I have a bone stock 2018 BRZ. If I want to do an Ace A350 on an otherwise stock car what do I need to buy? Do I need to get the ProECU programming kit? Do I need to get the ECU connect programming kit? Does it matter? What about needing a license. The ECUtek website is not super clear on this.

Yeah the licensing crap can be confusing. I went the with package from Counterspace garage who gives you what you need. Counterspace, Ace, and Delicious all worked together on the tune/package

Go through counter space garage. Ask them. You'll start a 3 day shit show here with that question

In the past, a person would have needed the Ace 350, ECUTEK cable (proprietary OBD2 to USB cable) and dongle (usb key), ECUTEK license, Delicious or other tuner’s tune. ECUTEK cable n dongle could be bought new or used, but the dongle is useless without the cable and vice versa. The license is coded to the ECU and is not transferable to another car/ECU. Same with the tune.

ECUTEK released the Bluetooth connect, which allowed for live monitoring and modifications.

I believe the ECUTEK cable and dongle can still be purchased, but it has also been replaced by the ECU connect and will likely phase out the old system or it will only be used by professional tuners. The ECU connect is like the Bluetooth connect unit, except it has a usb attachable cable for being able to reflash the ECU for tunes, as well as, coming with the needed key dongle. The good news is that you don’t need to purchase both, but for those of us that already have the old dongle, we would beed to buy the Bluetooth connect unit if we want to utilize it and the app. Lucky you.

Maybe. We'll see what Bill has in store for us later. I would really like a solution that doesn't touch the bottom end. Honestly any solution that doesn't require machining would be preferable. If we can figure out a reliable solution to increasing the rev limit while keeping the torque from dropping off, there's a good bit of horsepower increase right there.

Exactly. Literally every FI person I know that actually tracks these cars hard has had issues, whether it be heat management related or engine randomly externally venting itself related.

It's part of boosting an engine with 12.5 : 1 static compression I think? There's no room for error under boost. It goes lean for whatever reason - and all of a sudden a rod or two quits the team in dramatic fashion.

I've got a pretty robust cooling setup as is with legit math-ed out ducting. Temps are in check NA, but with boost, I'd have to re-work some of it for sure.

That will be hard. NA these cars start to drop off pretty hard at 6900rpm. 155wtq at 6900rpm is 203whp about the highest i've seen possible so far.

Now if you could drag that out another 600rpm and still make 155wtq but at 7500rpm it would be 221whp. I think the only way to keep power up that high would be ITBs or maybe shorter runners on intake manfiold, and a ace150 header, together i could see those holding power to maybe 7200rpm or 212whp. Then toss in cams and some oversized valves and you could probably hold power to 7500rpm and make 220whp. to go any higher you would need more displacement I.E. stroker kit.

No doubt it won't be easy, but if he can figure out a way to make the same 155-150 WTQ at 8,000 rpm, well that gets us in the ballpark of ~228-236 WHP. The way I read this: "The plans are to increase the NA power above what the current limits with the current level of parts in the market." makes it seem like it likely won't only utilize parts that are already on the market (ITB's, existing intake manifolds) and instead might focus on other aspects of allowing the engine to rev out while not losing steam. We'll have to wait and see.

Yeah agreed. I honestly think it's a combination of a bunch of factors like thin cast connecting rods, high compression cast pistons, fairly primitive ECU architecture, and rather poor oiling ability. It just adds up to a lot of stock and even built motors going boom real quick.

I like the stroker kit but dont trust aftermarket quality control. Be a real bitch to do all that work and then find out the crank wasn't plated properly.

I have heard that a Motec tuned by someone that knows what they are doing helps. I'm assuming that there are more safety related conditions that can be set and monitored in a standalone? Finer control of all parameters involved, thus better resolution and thus faster reactions when things begin to go awry? Someone school me lol!

The oiling issues are another story. I'm pulling enough g load on hoosiers that I put an accusump back in the car, but I am still leery that I will have an issue at some point. Need to get an oil pan baffle and killer B pickup quickly from what I am told. And there are still no guarantees with those three precautions...

IIRC Cosworth did some research and basically the stock rods are sintered (i.e. not good for fatigue) and once you pass a fairly low torque output there is good chance the rod will fail with a sufficient number of cycles.

That is the goal, before any serious engine work needs to be done. Over the past 6 (going on 7) years of working on this car, we have tested a lot of different things, while also learning more about the airflow characteristics of this specific engine.

There are more things that can be done to help airflow. Look at what headers do to the torque dip, that is pretty obvious to everyone. So with that in mind there is more that can be done but there is a balance between optimal vacuum and smooth unrestricted flow into the engine. Getting the correct ratio (with particular parts) is what will make power and of course dialing in ideal I/E cams angles, DI/PI angles for smooth airflow is what makes this all work. That is what we are working on and to see to what level we can maximize it.

I personally enjoy tuning NA cars over FI cars, because there is was may of an art and understanding needed to make things all work perfectly. FI, just add more boost and better gas, done.

Are there limitations, of course, but we have seen what is reliable on a forced induction vehicle, so I do not think rods, or pistons are going to be an issue here. Valvetrain and oil pressure are the only real concerns, so we are watching those a bit more closely. We have a couple engines we are testing in house, so you guys don't have too. ;)

Cheers,
William Knose
Delicious Tuning

Based on previous threads ITB's generate the most excitement on this forum for people staying NA even if they do little for performance people want trumpents on their boxer engines.

I see what you did there with @KR-S 86's avatar! :bow:

They seem to work with trumpets but only kinda work with the supplied plenum.. Solid is complete Greddy ITBs and dotted is stock intake.


http://[img]https://i.imgur.com/S68ORxk.jpg[/IMG]https://i.imgur.com/S68ORxk.jpg

Have you seen any difference with the Stock 2017+ header? I have an 2013 Intake Manifold and Stock 2017+ header, but the tune is based on the older Stock header.

ITB's are on my long list. they make me feel warm and fuzzy.